One of the things about Chinese culture in Salzman's book that I was unaware of is how the idea of being hospitable is more important than having privacy. This is first seen on page 35 during Mark's conversation with Dr. Li. After they no longer needed to meet for morning instruction Dr. Li tells him that if he ever has any questions to come to his house and just walk in. He says even if he is sleeping he can wake him up. On pg 59 one of Marks doctor students comes walking into his house white he is asleep, and like Dr. Li told Mark to do this student decides to wake up Mark. And not only does he just expect Mark to answer some questions or help him with something in the house but he expects Mark to get up and leave so he can take Mark somewhere. Not wanting to go, Mark tries every excuse he can think of , he tells him that he has something to do, that he is expecting a visitor, and that he does not feel well. None of these things mattered, all the student said was "Follow me" as he pulled Mark out the door. As a Westerner this seems like an extremely rude thing to do, walking into someone home uninvited and forcing them to come somewhere with you. And to Mark this was an annoyance, but if you look at it from the a easterner's point of view there is nothing wrong with doing this because the student would not have minded if Mark walking into his house if he needed something from him. As an outsider looking in I see where they are coming from with this idea of hospitality coming before everything but personally I like having privacy and would not expect someone to just walk into my house no matter how well I knew them.
I agree with you, Greg. I too was surprised by the lack of privacy. I had no idea that the Chinese valued hospitality so much that they disregarded personal boundaries. I couldn’t imagine having someone I hardly knew wake me up in the middle of the night so I could answer their questions or follow them out of my house. To westerners, this seems absolutely ridiculous, but to them, it is a completely normal thing to do. It is interesting to see these cultural differences and how some of them, like this example, would be considered rude to us but are part of being a respectable person in China.
Greg I agree with what you're saying. I was shocked to read how the Chinese were more concerned about hospitality than their own privacy. If someone came into my house and woke me up in the middle of the night, I would call the cops before offering him tea. Also it is interesting how it they're idea of hospitality seems ludicrous to us, yet is absolutely natural to them. In China it would be weird if they didn't invite you into their house, even if you are a total stranger. If it was me I would avoid a foreigner, yet in China they open them with open arms.
This is so bizarre! I agree because when I was first read the part when Mark first meets Teacher Wei, I was so shocked how two people can just walk into someone’s house who they’ve known for such a short period of time. If I was just getting out of the shower and I walked in to my room and there was just two people sitting there while I was basically naked in a towel, there is no possible way I would be able to stay calm. It’s a bit shocking how much emphasis China places on hospitality. I wouldn’t think that this would be acceptable any place in the world. Mark must have how a tough time keeping what he was really thinking inside of him cause I know I wouldn’t be able to.
me too! I thought that this was so weird. I also found it bizarre that all these Chinese men were coming up to him and marveling at him because he was a foreigner. I think the funniest part of the book was when he was stating at the side of the river and the Chinese fisherman's jaw dropped as soon as he saw Mark. It was also interesting to see the children marveling at Mark because it shows that not only are the adults respectful of the foreigners, but the respect from the adults has been taught to the children.
I completely agree and I just find it crazy how different the West and East can be in some things. In the west, if the student was to come into their teacher's home and wake them up they can be in trouble and possibly be arrested. Meanwhile, in the eastern world , this is just a normal occurrence and nothing is out of the ordinary if a student does this to a teacher in the east. -CPor
I agree with you, Greg. The idea of hospitality coming before privacy, or anything else for that matter, is truly very different then from what we are used to. I'm not sure how I'd react if someone were to wake me up in the middle of the night just because they have a question about something. Nevertheless, I do see where they are coming from with this idea. I guess it's just another one of the many differences that there are between Eastern and Western culture.
I have to agree with Greg completely on this one. It is kinda weird To see how different western culture is to eastern culture. The tiniest things can be taken completely different in the east than in the west. Western cultures are way less struck when it comes to certain things.like what Chris said about waking their teachers and how it can be punishable with possible arrest this is bizarre and completely different from eastern culture. This shows how simple little things can be taken completely different in certain cultures and how cultures are far different from our own in the west. Snic
I also agree. I found it so weird that people just walk in others houses. I could never be like Dr. Li and I don't think many people of the Western Hemisphere would do the same as Dr. Li. I know if I have just met a guy that I wouldn't invite him into my house and around my family. -JGravina
The world is a very large and diverse place. Many things are different from hemisphere to hemisphere that make each unique and distinct. For example, from the Eastern to the Western hemisphere, we have different cultures that make us have varying beliefs on topics such as respect. In Mark Salzman's autobiography Iron and Silk, we see that in regards to respect, it can be greatly varied from East to West. We see that there is a certain level of respect for higher-level individuals such as teachers. Several points in Salzman's story, we see that there is a much more personal and respectful level, mainly between teachers and students, in the East than the West. Though we do respect teachers and other individuals with authority, Western society doesn't have such personal relationships and sometimes thinks such relationships are bizarre, to say the least. On page 27 of the book, Mark tells us that while meeting his teacher, Teacher Wei, that he was half-naked and wet from showering just a short time before their arrival. The two older women, Teacher Wu and Teacher Wei, both entered his home without any warning. In Eastern society, it's an acceptable thing to just enter the house of any individual that is under your tutelage. However, if something like this happened in Western society, there would police outside the house and it would be on the news or something to that extent. Now to talk about the closeness of these relationships is relative to depending on the society. Western society, you would be very professional, not trying to give off any type of impression of anything that would personal, while in the East it's customary to ask for personal tasks and favors from students or colleagues. These differences are because of respect that we have as well as the trust for others as a whole. The West is much less trusting and forgiving than the East, and that plays into the respect that we, as a whole, have for one another. The main difference is not only the level of respect, but the level of trust also plays a major role, and that's why Eastern society is different from Western society on this view.
John, I 100% agree with you that the teacher and student relationships in the East are much more personal and intimate than in the West. In the East, students have the utmost respect for their teachers. Also, it is believed that if a student disobeys their teacher it is similar to disobeying their parents. In the West, many students treat their teachers with disrespect and feel like they are a wall or barrier that is impeding their journey to adulthood. The example that you used from Iron and Silk is a perfect. In the West, if a teacher intruded a student's house without permission, they would be immediately thrown in jail and would be the top story on the news. In the East, teachers are seen like family or parents that guide you to become a successful and prosperous human being.
Without a doubt! This relationship between student and teacher first struck me after i read the part where Mark is given the letter from the students advising him as to what he can do better during his lessons. This seems like it would happen in Eastern culture. Given the same situation in the West, the students couldn't care less about the teacher or the lesson. Its just so strange how different two cultures could view the same topic. I commend the East for how dedicated they are towards there teachers and their learning.
I admire the determination of how the eastern culture students always want to improve themselves in their studies and activities. However, in the west students will just walk through the motions in any activity and even classes just seeking for the passing grade. The east even goes as far as informing the teachers on ways to improve their teaching thats amazing.
I couldn't agree with you more, John. There is definitely more trust and respect in the Eastern culture, as well as a closer relationship between teachers and student. Perhaps this is for the better. As you said, in the West student-teacher relationships are very professional and impersonal and this is definitely another huge difference between Eastern and Western culture.
The eastern value of exchanging gifts is something I found particularly fascinating. In one scene, Old Ding offers a rowboat to Salzman in exchange for a simple charcoal drawing. Salzman is overwhelmed by this, not wanting to take something of such value from a poor family. However, thanks to his thorough knowledge of Chinese culture, he is able to convince them not to by “asking for something greater”. He instead asks for a piece of art, or in this case to hear a village song. One scene that I found particularly frustrating was when Salzman acquires a Michaelangelo book imported from America, but is unable to gift it to Lin. Lin is a devoted lover of Michaelangelo’s works, going as far as calling him his “teacher”. However, the only way for Salzman to deliver the book to Lin is through Zheng. Salzman had quit his lessons with Zheng due to the attention that Zheng was giving him over the other students. This goes against the Chinese value of “equality”, and made Salzman feel guilty once other students stopped arriving. By quitting, however, he made things even worse as quitting is considered a great insult to the teacher. Because of this, he is no longer able to deliver the book to Lin. In fact, Little Guo tells Salzman that Lin would not even accept the book given the chance due to him “insulting” Zheng. Lin previously told Salzman a saying illustrating such a scenario: “A thing can seem easy one day and impossible the next.”
Chris, I agree with you that in the Eastern culture rarely would they accept a gift without repaying the favor. This is seen many times such as your examples but also when Dr. Lin tells Mark the story of him helping a boy with a fever and the father couldn't repay him at the time. Then that man comes much later with eggs and leaves it for him and walks away with shame. Also when the acquaintce of Old Ding offers the rowboat for the painting, it is seen that monetary or equal value is different to them than to us. They view the equality of gifts different than from the West. They feel that when given a painting is so valuable that is why he offers the rowboat in return. Mark has to eventually learn to manipulate that unwritten rule in order to not have to make them repay him in an unequal way.
Mark Salzman’s Iron and Silk shows the close relationship between teacher and student in Eastern culture. Salzman’s Teacher Wei, taught many lessons to her devout student, as seen on page 36, as she takes on the responsibility of not only Salzman’s academic progress, but as well as his development as a person. This shows that the relationship between teacher and student in Eastern culture goes beyond the boundaries of what many Western teachers relationships are with their students, which is also shown on page 36 as Teacher Wei offers advice to Salzman concerning his family and friends, what his diet should consist of, the clothing that he should wear, his studies as well as his exercising habits, and the attitude that he should have towards life and the challenges that he may struggle with. This shows the amount of care and concern from Teacher Wei that she has for Salzman, which makes for a close caring relationship between teacher and student. She is even shocked and appalled at the idea of how in Western Culture, children becoming adults must learn to make decisions for themselves. This shows how one must learn to be self-reliant on one’s own abilities to take care of their work and other responsibilities in Western Culture, while in Eastern Culture in is encouraged from an early age and even as an adult to consult with others to seek their advice as well as their help if it is needed. Teacher Wei shows that the bond between teacher and student is strong, as having someone to consult with on a personal level as well as seeking out help when you most need it is seen more in Eastern Culture then in Western Culture.
I agree with what Adem said because as I read, I also saw a strong teacher to student relationship forming. Each person Mark encountered, they showed him respect and gratitude for his dedication. When Mark taught the medical students, they referred to him as professor rather than teacher out of respect because he was an educated white man willing to teach them English. These relationships Mark formed stayed strong until the end of his stay in China. Therefore, the bonds Mark made with his teachers and colleagues and even when he was the student to his teachers, there was definitely a strong connection portrayed. Based on what Adem said about the Western and Eastern cultures, I also see a difference between them based upon respect and gratification towards foreigners. And just to answer the question Adem asked me in my blog earlier, I stand by my word and continue to say that the woman showed discrimination towards Mark and this can be the way some other countries treat foreigners. Based on the example I provided previously, I feel discrimination can take place anywhere throughout the world. - A Carlo
I also agree with Adem's statement, the bond between teacher and student is shown to be a very strong within the book. Salzburg shows in his book the strong respect that students have for their teachers. This is put on display through the reverence Mark is shown by the medical students, shown when they would always refer to him as professor. Yet he also showed the care that teacher's have for their students, as Adem stated. Shown through how Teacher Wei would not only advise Mark in his teaching skills, but also advise him in his personal life. It portrays the close bond that teachers and students in Eastern culture have that you just don't see in Western culture. In Western society, you see that are almost afraid to get too close to their students. They forget that teaching should sometimes go beyond books, as they are not only preparing their students for the next level of education, they are preparing them for the real world. In the end, I agree with Adem's comments and believe that Salzburg does a very good job of showing the close bond that teacher and student have in Eastern culture. - J Asselta
I disagree Adem. I have strong relationships with most of my teachers. I know especially with my Computer teacher this year. I can tell him anything and everything and he will be the first to help. Having a strong relationship with a teacher is key to keeping a interest in the subject. I've noticed when you like and relate to the teacher you care more about their work and you will try harder because you like the person.
I agree completely Adem. Mark Salzman shows us how close a relationship between a student and teacher in China really is and also shows us how much the Chinese people view such a relationship. One student-teacher relationship that stuck out ot me when I was reading however, is the one between Mark and Teacher Zheng. The relationship started out like usual for mark with an acquaintance introducing Zheng to Mark and they immediately set off to train and Zheng accepts Mark as a student. What stuck out ot me though wasnt the actual training however, it was how it ended. You see, when Mark decided to end the training with Zheng, Zheng took it as a personal offence. So great this offence was, that when Mark tried to have a gift passed on through Zhang by having the acquaintance give the gift to Zheng, the acquaintance refused. He said that in Chinese culture it is a great evil to break off a student-teacher relationship and that because he did, Zheng no longer wanted to have anything to do with him. I think this adequatly shows how the Chinese view student-teacher reltionships
Over hundreds of years the eastern hemisphere still sticks to family traditions very strongly compared to the western hemisphere. Particularly, China, has changed their tradition very little compared to American tradition and so still emphasizes many expectations on their children from a very young age. Through Mark Salzman’s first hand experience, there is a great deal of responsibility put on children to be successful, especially if they have a disadvantage. When Mark agreed to help Mr. Gong’s 12 year old son learn how to paint, he also found out that because of the boy’s near sightedness he could not go to college. As a result, the father wanted him to learn a trade soon so the boy would do well in life. It’s almost absurd, from a Westerners point of view, that because you lack certain genetic traits you instantly fail from getting into college and then must own up to the responsibility of perfecting a trade, all at such a young age. Modern American culture, would not be this bias and force such a task upon an innocent kid who doesn’t have the power to change his physical qualities. Rather they would help him get to college and over come this obstacle. Likewise, while Mark begins the lesson with the boy, the family hovers around him to see his first brush stroke hit the paper. The boy nervously goes for his first attempt but it only ends in a broking paint brush. His family “gasped and scolded him,” saying “Look what you did, you broke it!” and as the lesson goes on the further the criticism gets more aggressive(Salzman.47). The family even says “ Why are you making trembly crooked lines? Concentrate, don’t just play- Uncle Mark’s time is very precious, don’t waste it,” all as the boy stays perfectly silent and without resentment. The amount of respect and discipline that is required by a young Chinese child is outrageous. Even though the pressure and insults are overwhelming, the boy still sits there and does not peep a word. The average American 12 year old would still be playing video games and sports rather then going through intense practices for a trade he will have to do the rest of his life. American tradition emphasis responsibility, discipline, and skills more near the ages between 16 and 22 simply for the fact that these ages are reasonable for this weight. The different cultures between the Western and Eastern hemisphere, the United States and China, is remarkable. The expectations that the Chinese hold their young ones to is a whole another world compared to what the young ones of America are held to.
One aspect that I found to be both very interesting and hopeful is the treatment of foreigners in China. For some time I have loved the idea of travelling, but I was unsure on whether or not I would be well received. Anytime I see good experience of another in their travels, I am given hope that the people of that country would be very kind. Throughout Salzman's stay in China, there are many examples of kindness showed to him by natives of the country. One instance that stood out most to me on pg 70 is when he met the man on the fishing boat. Not only did the man show generosity towards Mark, but he also showed genuine surprise and interest. The man asked him to accompany him on his boat and took him to visit his family. His family had similar reactions upon seeing Mark. They then fed him and took him back to where they had picked him up. For one thing the man never had to offer Mark anything at all. Also, if something like that would have happened in the West, or at least in certain parts of the United States, it would have most likely been met with suspicion. This shows the best of people in their treatment of foreigners. However, on pg 5, a People's Liberation Army man was overly critical of Salzman. He first commented on the type of food Mark ate and then the amount. This shows how some may look for chances to find differences in people from other countries. Although this was one bad experience among others, the majority of people he encountered were nice to him. This event shows that there are people who won't treat you well everywhere in the world. In China, Mark met a variety of people, some of which were kind while others were less so. Overall, Mark had fairly good experiences where people showed kindness, sometimes unexpectedly. The world has changed a lot since this work was written almost thirty years ago. Despite this, his experiences give me hope that I will be treated well in other countries should I decide to go.
I agree with what Danny is saying. Throught Mark's biography a lot of people he encountered showed him respect even his students who didn't call him teacher, they called him professor Mark. Even Hai Bin who takes him on to teach him calligraphy. - A Sarra
I agree with the point you are making Danny. It's always interesting to see the experiences of others, whether they are good or bad, to be able to fully understand a culture or how well you would be received by that culture, such as the one in 1980's China. However, at some points he wasn't as well received such as during the beginning before he reached Hunan, when the security was difficult with him. It generally depends on who you encounter and interact with.
I agree with what you're saying Danny. As someone who also enjoys traveling, how I as a foreigner would be treated is always something that I consider. So reading Iron and Silk and seeing that in the east there are people who treat foreigners with respect was great. One of the hardest parts of going to another country is always the cultural barrier between you and the natives, so seeing that there are some people who are willing to treat foreigners kindly and with respect is great.
You make a very good point, Danielle. I too found the Chinese fisherman an oddity in Mark's travels. I find that the hospitality that Mark explains in his book is comforting to the Chinese people. perhaps because they live in such poor conditions and are controlled by the government is one of the reasons why they are so hospitable. Do you believe so? Also, in one of my last blog posts I brought up the comparison of Manhattan and China and how back then they were different. People in Manhattan some times tend to be isolated from each other. In Manhattan people just walk by each other without acknowledging one another. However, it seems that in China they are very hospitable, but their city is kind of gross. I wonder if the modernization of China has lead the people to become more selfish. Would you agree with this? Do you have any insight?
I agree Danny. In Chinese culture respect, loyalty, and hospitality is a must. It definitely is shown strongly throughout Marks experiences in China. The people in China work and are proud with what they have, they remain humble and work to improve themselves and each other, always acknowledging their peers. Where as here people can care less about each other. Passing by each other bumping shoulders and giving dirty looks. Everyone is out for themselves and are looking just to steal any opportunity from you.
Book 1 in Iron and Silk shows not only Chinese culture that stereotypes foreigners but also shows a China under a Communist regime as well. There were multiple times throughout the first book specifically the first few pages where Mark Salzman is having a hard time trying to get on the train as the officials make up regulations to keep Salzman and his colleagues off the train. There are other types of stereotyping such as when Salzman asked if he wants a Western style breakfast while he was on the train, and some people automatically assume that Salzman is a professor from America when he really isn't, this is typical stereotyping that every American and wealthy and well-educated. The integration of communism into Chinese culture is also very present in the radios or loudspeakers with constant blathering of propaganda saying things like "Without the Communist Party, there would be no new China." Another example of communism is when Mark is greeted by Comrade Hu who gives Salzman entertainment which involves African Americans singing a Chinese song "Socialism is Good" which shows that Communism is very omnipresent in the everyday lives of individuals in China. Even though America and China have opened up friendly relations at this point in time (history), the latter's culture is completely different from the former's. This is mostly due to the presence of Commmunism which is completely against the what the free enterprise system that The United States works towards. The Communism system puts a whole entire coat of paint on the Eastern culture and that's mostly do to the government's control on nearly everything, not only enterprises but also things such as the education system, a god example of the control on the education system is when Salzman's class debates or discusses how World War II was ended because some students assumed that Japan surrendered to completely different threat in China and some assumed that the United States dropped the atomic bomb on Japan so that they could claim the victory. This is also an example of how the government possibly controls what is printed and how it controls freedom of speech in China. All of these examples of stereotyping and the presence of Communism shows a very big difference in Western and Eastern culture.
As i spoke of the treatment of foreigners, i see parallels in your post. Not everyone treats Mark the way he should be treated. We see how strict and rigid the government and its officials are at this time. They abuse Mark and treat him very unfairly. The amount of censorship imposed on the people is extensive as well. They are fed certain information that they have no choice but to believe as true. I agree that under the Communist regime the people do not get as much freedom as they used to have. Despite this it is hard to see at times because they seem to live pretty normal lives without the interference of the officials. It is beneficial to see the viewpoint of an American and to have their horizons widened to different viewpoints of the world. They can be, in some cases, more widely accepted viewpoints. Overall, censorship is wrong to an extent and the people should be given a certain degree more of freedom. -DD'Amico
It’s odd how ones perception of a country can change so much after reading parts of such a small book. When I think of China, the first thought that comes to mind is how large the population is. With such a large amount of people living in one place, you wouldn’t expect the area to be the cleanest, but I certainly didn’t expect this place to be as Salzman described it. I was baffled to see how little emphasis this country places on hygiene. “Dishwater and refuse were thrown casually out of windows, rats the size of squirrels could be flattened out all over the roads, spittle and mucus lay everywhere, and the dust and ash from coal-burning stoves, heaters and factories mixed with dirt and rain to stain the entire city an unpleasant greyish-brown” (Salzman 10). This doesn’t sound like any place I would want to live. I imagine this is the sort of description given my foreigners who stereo-type New York. I just can’t believe the way these people take care of their country. Even going as far as to urinating in the streets. Just disgusting! It’s striking to see this type of behavior even in places you would expect to be clean, like the Hunan Theatre. The crowd spat so loudly throughout the performance that the performer actually stopped and walked off stage (13). Not only is this repulsive but it is exceptionally rude. It’s understandable, since these people are living under communist rule, that there wouldn’t be many laws or restrictions promoting cleanliness, but still. In Western culture we place certain regulations on the way the citizens treat the land. All over Staten Island we have signs which state that littering is against the law and you can be fined, or the signs that restrict the illegal dumping of waste. I’m pretty sure urinating in public would be considered a crime in our culture. It’s so weird to see how different two places can really be and how different two places can value the same idea. I just believe hygiene should be a top priority for any country, but then again that is just one man’s opinion.
Yes Mr.Ross definitely, and also another thing you notice, even places where there aren't a lot of people, because when Mark goes to the school its still rather dirty. When he's in the classroom remember how the rat ran through it and when he approached the principle guy, he says don't let people know because they can't have the reputation of being dirty, so in general it seems the place all over is rather dirty.
I totally agree with you Kevin. Reading about the disgusting streets of China really repulsed me too! When I think of China I stereotype it as a country that is well kept, maintaining excellent order and balance. I also agree with what you said about public urination which is definitely a crime as I know someone who got arrested for such an offense. America and China are two completely different countries with the way they value their customs and beliefs. Although we in America find it strange and rather disgusting to hear about rats and garbage everywhere, it is a normal everyday occurrence for those living in China. Hygiene is without a doubt an important priority for any country and should probably be enforced a little more strictly in China, but then again America isn’t exactly the cleanest country.
In Iron and Silk one thing that struck me was the difference in the way the people in China lived. In China, they lived without basic things that we in America have gotten used to. This struck me because it made me realize how we in America have begun to take things for granted. The everyday things we use like water, electricity, and plumbing are all things people in China didn’t have. For example, there was one point in the book where Mark Salzman is in his room and the electricity turns off. Curious about why he asks Old Sheep what happened. She casually answers that the power is off, and that it happens every couple of days (Salzman 12). The fact that Old Sheep was so okay with it, while Mark was confused, shows the difference. Something as basic as electricity was always there, so he never thought it would be a concern. Old Sheep, conversely, was used to power going on and off. This scene really showcased to me the difference in our societies. Where we in America, believe something like electricity to be a common commodity, people in China value it more and learned to live without it. It isn’t just electricity that we take for granted. In this China, there is very poor hygiene. Hygiene is something that we don’t even think about. We always shower, we have bathrooms, and the streets are always clean. However, in China there was waste in the streets, germs and mucus everywhere, and the life there was generally dirty (10). In America we expect sanitation to take our garbage, we expect our plumbing to work, and we expect the people around us and our streets to be clean. If we in America lost any of those things we wouldn’t know what to do. The people in America have gotten too used to a certain way of life, without realizing that in other parts of the world, there are those who have none of these commodities.
Sal your aspects of people in America and in China are views that I can relate to. The example of people in America taking electricity for granted is something that is correct because what would we do if there is none, even if there is no electricity for days. The new generation of Americans would panic and be in hysteria without their technology because it is something that uses electricity when needed. I respect those people in China who undergo no electricity because it goes to show that they can survive. Your view on hygiene is also very accurate because it is another thing that Americans rarely even worry about. With all these resources in our homes such as bathrooms and showers, being dirty is not a problem. The overall view that you portray is agreeable because in America many people have not realized other conditions in China and also other countries. We have been used to many of the things here, and never realize that other people are suffering from a lack of these important things such as resources. Eventually in America we must learn how to survive and not rely on these because one day these resources and nearby goods will not be available. - Steven Pabua
I agree with your statement Sal. The living condition differences between China and America are huge. America has become used to its luxurious commodities and forget about how many other people live. I was very shocked that Old sheep was used to the power going out and didn't complain about it. Electricity to them was a luxury. Meanwhile in America it is something we expect to never go out and when it does we freak out about it. Your statement on the difference in hygiene is agreeable as well. The Chinese hygiene is very poor and would disgust any american. But the fact that the Chinese are used to those poor hygiene conditions is sad. America definitely have gotten used to these commodities and wouldn't know what to do without them.
I disagree with your statement Sal. You see in the book Mark clearly demonstrates that while their is a certain lust for a better life in Chinese culture, most people are content with where they are and don't even consider that they're poor or dont have good facilities. What Im trying to say,I guess, is that its not out fault that we were born where we are, we just play the hand we're dealt with. It clearly in the book states that the chinese people dont even think about the situation their in and they dont have hate for the situation theyre in either. For example, the fishermen dont complain that they have to use the river as their toilet and they certaintly dont complain when they use it as a shower. They even insult Mark for his poor hygiene when he refuses to do it. Old Sheep acts like it is completely normal for their city to have blackouts. What im trying to say is that, no Americans should not be faulted for "getting used to a certain way of life"- thats simply not fair. Should we simply discard all these commodities and give it to the Chinese? No, previous generations worked hard to get us those commodities and we should just abandon them, and no it is not evil to simply use the facilities offered and given to you at birth. And the sweeping generalization that all Americans have these commodities too irks me a little. It is a known fact that there are many Americans who do not have any of these basic services and yet they manage to live on a day to day basis. And Im not saying that we shouldnt help people with basic services-like china- if we have it and they dont. On the contrary, I believe it is out duty to help thos ein such need. I just believe that we shouldnt be ashamed to use-and rely- on the services we have had and the services we use.
I agree with you Sal, while America got so used to material things in life and all types of it. Such as fame , power and money have America living in constant competition with each other. America has become very individualistic and materialistic. While China and the East has a huge emphasis on the community and nature. -CPor
A part I found very interesting about this book was the discussion about the atomic bomb dropped on Japan (around page 51). During this conversation between Salzman and his students it brings up the censorship and the falsehood of the event in the Chinese common people’s eyes. The Chinese were lead to believe that the Japanese surrendered before this point to the Chinese and the only reason the USA dropped the bomb was to say they were the victor. They are totally oblivious to this and believe they are right and Salzman was wrong. This makes me start to think what if the censorship in our country is way more than we think? If people could be controlled this easily without any knowledge of being controlled than how would we know this doesn’t happen to us? This may sound like a huge conspiracy theory but I am just speculating on something that could be possible (but isn’t likely). Just look at “Operation Paperclip”, after WW2 German SS members were spared didn’t have to go to trial (secretly) if they agreed to come work for the US government. We were in turn harboring some war prisoners that no one knew about just to benefit ourselves with technology and weapons. The governments mislead us and didn’t reveal this to recently. How much of our history is untrue, that the government will reveal when they deem this is safe? Back to the scene from the book that when reading we find ridiculous and can’t imagine people believing; our government has lied to us and still is. Hopefully not on the scale that China is censored but it is definitely happening. Please don’t respond with unsupported conspiracy theories, or anything regarding the illuminati. -KWiesner
This is a part I found to be very interesting as well. It was odd how they think so differently about an event that we have accepted as the truth without question. An event as historic as this one that left as big an impact as it did should only be viewed in one way in all the history books, at least generally. It is strange how the Chinese hold such a different perspective on what we accept as what really happened and we accept the reason behind it. Given what the government of China has become, it seems more likely that their government fed them this information. Although one must wonder what the truth really is in times like this. However, it could just be a different point of view. -DD'amico
It's amazing how terrible China was and is now has the worlds biggest economy and is a world power and how much we got worse. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VMqcLUqYqrs
Eastern and Western standpoints regarding materialistic possessions are different and such is evident in Mark Salzman’s Iron and Silk. The acquisition of materialistic goods is connected with the act of helping one another in eastern and western society. The famous question in the west has always been “What’s in it for me?” The west has become so focused on the individual and one’s materialistic possession that we have almost forgotten what it is like to help others. In Salzman’s experience in China, his teacher of Wushu, Dr, Li would travel for 45 minutes every morning to teach Mark. Dr, Li is so willing to help Mark and is so happy to help him that he even tells him that if he needs any more help or guidance to come visit him. Dr Li says that no matter what he is doing, if Mark comes to his house he will help him, “But what if you are busy? “It doesn’t matter! If you come, I won’t be busy anymore!” “But what if you are asleep?” “Then wake me up!””. Most western teachers would not be happy if you interrupted their work or woke them from sleeping, in fact that is unheard of! If any student in the west were to wake up a teacher from their sleep to help them, not only would they not receive the help they are looking for, they would be punished. The eastern society has so much more emphasis on helping each other and I believe that the west has much to learn from the east about student teacher relationships. -TZirngibl
The interesting thing is, like you said, how materialistic western society for the most part has become. Back when Salzman wrote Iron and Silk, western culture was able to, much like eastern society, help others without needing anything in return. Now, just 30 years later, most people in western culture wouldn't raise a hand to help anyone unless it benefitted them in some way. While the case for China may not be so different, they still have deep roots to their past, which gives them an obligation and a basis for mutual respect and wanting to help your fellow man just for the sake of it, not for some type of material gratification.
I agree with you, Tim. I also think that the west can learn a lot from the student teacher relationships in the East. In the East the reason people teach is to help others, they teach because they want to. For example Dr. Li teacher Mark because he sees that Mark wants to learn, he receives nothing but the satisfaction of helping someone learn. Students learn only because they want to learn not because they are forced to. Because of this there is a higher level of respect between student and teacher. Over here in the west school has become more of a chore then anything else, students are forced to go to school and they do not care about their education. Teachers notice this lack of care and as a response care less about the education of their student and care more about their pay.
Throughout Salzman's Iron and Silk, the idea of hospitality is duly noted in several scenes of this novel. Although many characters depicted in the novel show great appreciation and respect towards Mark, one character shows no interest in him at all. This is seen during Mark's experience at the coffee shop. Unlike like most of the people Mark encounters, the woman who works in the shop does not show any satisfaction towards him. Being a foreigner, Mark is respected by most people, but this woman gives Mark a difficult time even for a cup of coffee. As seen on page 188, the woman charges Mark an entrance fee. The fee is five dollars which only applies from nine in the morning until later on. Mark arrives to the shop fifteen minutes after seven. Since he is different, the woman takes advantage of the situation and charges Mark the entrance fee anyways. As a result, the lady causes an explosive scene with him because he is eccentric in her eyes. Later on, she yells at him saying he cannot leave the area with store property. Even then she finds a way to cause a dispute with him. Furthermore when Mark decides to buy coffee but in a larger container, the lady charges Mark five times the price than what a single cup of coffee costs. At this point, it is obvious that there is discrimination towards foreigners. Later on in that same scene as seen on page 189, the African American medical student, Sudan, states that Chinese people feel that they are superior to blacks and other races. After reading that, I realized that not all Chinese people feel the same way about foreigners. It is ironic because Mark felt important and greatly applauded by his hosts for being different and after seeing this incident with the coffee shop, my opinion and viewpoints changed. I chose this scene over others because it shows discrimination and rudeness towards a foreigner, something that is never told throughout Mark’s experiences in China up until that point. - A Carlo
I agree with you Carlo as the woman in the coffee shop was incredibly rude towards Mark Salzman, as all he really was a cup of coffee to enjoy, and all she offers him is an expensive cup of coffee and a bad attitude. It is important to note Carlo that this is not the first time that a person in China had been rude towards Salzman, as he was on the train eating his breakfast and minding his own business, the soldier aboard the train, known in the story as the Peoples Liberation Army man, made a comment about the food he was having, which was a Western style breakfast, about how he could be eating that kind of food at 7:00 in the morning. The Although he made a remark towards who he felt was a foreigner who was in this soldiers homeland, it shows how people who serve in Chinas communist regime have no care or desire to know or even respect a foreigner from another country. This shows the ignorance that China has of foreigners, as both the woman in the coffee shop and the PLA man have towards Salzman. Is this reaction from them out of discrimination that many other countries may show to a foreigner who they are unaccustomed to, or is this a part of the Communist regime in China brainwashing their people about foreigners?
I also agree with you Carlo, it is very clear that this woman had no interest whatsoever in showing any hospitality toward Mark. The idea that someone would make someone pay more money for something as simple as a cup of coffee, because they are a foreigner, is absolutely baffling. However it is also not surprising as Mark has had multiple situations where he shown rude behavior before. I'm referring to the scene where he was at the train station and the people were making it extremely difficult for him and his friends to get on the train. Seemingly making up regulations as they went along in order to keep them from making there train, the only logical being that they were foreigners. If something happened in America where this happened to Chinese people, the workers most likely would have been fired. To me, it is an example that their are only a certain group of people that follow the rules of hospitality.
Upon reading Iron and Silk, I was very intrigued by how many times Mark Salzman was put into an uncomfortable state. As an American living in China, Mark was bound to come across some rough experiences but what I cannot fathom is how Mark reacted and handled these experiences. In the beginning of the book, Mark is nonchalantly having breakfast in a dining car. He is greeted by an attendant and she immediately urged him to order the Western Style breakfast instead of the Chinese style. Even though it costs three times as much Mark orders it. While eating, a man muttered, “Look at the foreigner, how can he eat that at seven in the morning” (Salzman 5). On the fifth page in the book, Mark is already being put in an uncomfortable state; he is being stereotyped as an odd and unusual American. Mark ignores the comment and a few minutes later he orders the Chinese style breakfast. Immediately, the same man states, “How can he eat so much” (Salzman5). Mark is once more being put in an uncomfortable state; he is now being labeled as a gluttonous and greedy American. Astoundingly, Mark doesn’t state a word to the man and pretends he didn’t hear a sound. Being trained in martial arts, Mark could have easily taught the man a wise lesson but he didn’t. As Americans, we are known as fiery people who don’t take damaging comments lightly. I was shocked by how Mark reacted to this man’s remarks. Is Mark a wimp or is he wise?
Well Festa in Marks defense, these are people republic soldiers which means they're Chinese army men, and Mark is tired since its 7 A.M, while he just got skimped on his Western meal he paid extra for while he's in a foreign country that isn't too fond of Americans so calling him a wimp for not trying to beat up 2 Chinese soldiers in China after they made a rather harmless remark is rather harsh. Don't forget, in kung fu dojos and such, they teach to be peaceful and not going around beating up the first person to insult you because you can.
I agree with you, Festa, when you talked about how he was faced with some uncomfortable situations. One being when he bought his bike and everyone stared at him when he paid for it and rode it out of the store. But, I'm also going to have to agree with Mr. Jellyfish in the sense that Mark is taught not to settle conflict with his fists. He is trained in self-defense, not go-and-kick-some-guys-butt-because-he-called-you-a-name. Besides, even if he hit the man, he could have been imprisoned because once you reach a black belt, your fists become lethal weapons. So he isn't a wimp, he is wise and in control of himself for not over-reacting to some harsh words.
I see both of your points and agree that I may have been a little too harsh. Mark is trained in martial arts and he has practiced for hours to control his inner peace when he is tested in these uncomfortable situations.
One thing that caught my attention in Iron and Silk was how generous most of the people Mark met were. One specific situation was when Mark showed Old Ding and his family the charcoal drawing he had drawn. When Mark offers to give the old man the picture the old man was surprised and wouldn't accept it. He claimed he had nothing to give in return but Mark said it was just a picture and wants him to have it for free. But when finally the old man accepts the drawing he starts negotiating with Old Ding on what they would give Mark. They finally come to the conclusion they would give him one of their row boats. Mark told Old Ding this was absolutely ridiculous and he would not take a poor mans boat for a charcoal sketch. Mark realizes they were very serious and wouldn't let him not take a gift. So he asks them to sing him a song instead as repayment. What fascinated me with this whole scene was the amount of generosity and gratitude they showed Mark. Even though they are a poor fisherman's family they were willing to give up one of their only two row boats, even after mark presented it as a gift. I think this speaks tons about their selflessness and generosity. The amount of emphasis the family put on repayment for something as small as a painting was shocking. They place value on sentimental items instead of monetary value.
I completely agree with you Jake. People in the East just treat people with a different amount of respect, an amount of respect that you will never see from people in the West. Throughout my posts, the word "weird" or "strange" often comes up, and I'm going to use it again. To me, I find it strange that Old Ding, along with all people in Eastern Society, show much gratitude and respect to a person when they present them something. Most people in Western Culture are grateful when they receive something, however, I don't think we would offer someone a rowboat like Old Ding did. Than again, that's just me. Another example of gratitude is seen when Mark presents the watercolors, brushes and charcoals to Mr. Gongs son after he learns that he likes to draw (Salzman 47). However, it seems like Mr. Gongs son doesn't like to draw, but his father still demands him to show respect to what Mark did for him. This example is a little more realistic, and is something you will see in Western Culture, however, your example is perfect when Eastern Culture is discussed. -VCal
I don't think that generosity is the right word to describe this scenario. In Chinese culture, people are obliged to be good hosts. If they fail to properly serve their host, they will feel greatly dishonored. In the case where Old Ding offered his boat to Salzman, he feels as if he had no choice but to do so. This explains why he had "Fifteen minutes of vigorous discussion, all in dialect" before coming to this conclusion (Salzman 119). This likely originates from the communist theme that everyone must be equal. As such, they needed to give Salzman something that they perceived as equal value. On the topic of being a good host, one scene that sticks out is when Professor Jin invites Salzman over while being severely ill. Despite all that he shows him in this condition, he claims to be a "terrible host" due to not properly greeting him at the door (Salzman 194-195). In addition, Jin's determination to continue calligraphy with arthritis, of all diseases, truly demonstrates the Eastern value of hard work.
As we read Mark Salzman’s biography Iron and Silk we learn that there are many cultural differences between the western texts to here in America. We can see examples of this on page seventy four when the westerners says “Miss Kiniski the star of the movie wasn’t beautiful because of the fact her lips were too big.” In the western culture they feel that a woman’s lips should be small and delicate. Mark replies by saying “a woman’s lips should be full because they are good for kissing.” Mark also states that “since he has been there in China he hasn’t seen two people kiss each other, not even in the movies there.” Mark found this hard to believe so when he asks the westerners they begin to say “here in China people don’t kiss here.” Mark tells them that in America we see people kissing in movies or television shows to show love and compassion to each other. Westerners also told Mark that parents in America kiss and hug their children to show them that they truly love them. Parents in China are only found kissing their infants. While here in America parents kiss or hug their children good night. In conclusion this is how we are culturally different than the west. -A Sarra
This is a good point that you bring up Anthony. That something as simple as showing affection towards your children can be so drastically different in these two different cultures. How in the west it seems as if parents show more affection towards their kids then parents in eastern cultures.
There are many cultural differences between the west and the east, things ranging from home interactions to life at school. But if one were to go to China, for example, the first difference they would see is food and drink. In the very beginning of the book, after Mark is finally on the train after dealing with the whole lack of tickets situation, he goes to the restroom and puts some water on his face and takes a few drinks. When he looks up a sign says "do not drink" and he ends up getting diarrhea for the next few weeks. Now in the US, one can drink from a tap anywhere, in his or her house, at a restroom in a restaurant, and most definitely they would not get ill, even though most people don't usually do that. The food and when food is eaten is even a bigger difference. When Mark sits down, he orders a "western style breakfast" which is a terrible ham sandwich with a glass of milk, this goes to show what easterners think we eat for breakfast because a soldier behind mark says “Look at the foreigner, how can he eat that at seven in the morning” (Salzman 5). Since Mark wasn't full from the sandwich he ends up ordering a eastern style breakfast which is just noodles with an egg on top, and thinking back to the west, most people would not even think of eating that at 7 A.M yet theres another difference. When Mark is given his food, the soldier yet again has input when he says “How can he eat so much” (Salzman5). This goes to show how easterners think we are all gluttons, when we pretty much are. But ultimately, in the first few pages of the book, we get to see how the west and the east are night and day even in the simplest things and then how things get more distant in similarity as the book progresses. - Labeat Lunja USA
I totally agree with you.I think they have the right to call us gluttonous and compared to them we truly are.Only recently we were overtaken by Mexico as the fattest country in the world. The stereotype about America being fat is completely true. While I was in Europe sophomore year out of 20 kids about two were chubby(not totally obese), maybe around 240lbs; but all the Europeans seemed to stair at them and right away notice us as American tourists.
I would have to disagree with you karl. I don't believe that the eastern culture as any authority to demean the westerners in any way. While it is true that Americans are factually the largest humans on earth, that doesn't justify belittlement. Just because differences in culture are portrayed doesn't advocate that one culture is the "wrong" way to live. I believe that every country has differences that will seem odd to others. Instead of mocking the differences of nations, people should accept or ignore how others act because in actuality it doesn't affect their daily lives. Mr. Lunja's post about cultural should help us see the negative hate cultural differences can create and change that in society today.
As many of my classmates above explained the struggle of being a foreigner and Mark's mistreatment in China, there was one part that really caught my attention. In the chapter called "Hong Kong Foot" on page 40, Mark has started to see the hot and humid weather in Changsha by developing a case of athlete's foot. No one he sought or knew was familiar with the symptoms. Mark had to write to someone in Hong Kong who later on sent medicine, along with candy bars and brownies (Salzman 40). He had to go to the post office after receiving a pick up letter in the mail. This was the part that frustrated me the most and made me feel bad for Mark because the woman helping Mark went to the room to pick up his package that was torn up, and everything inside was out of order. At the same time this woman had an attitude that was uncalled for. She loudly told Mark to "sign and pay" and Mark saw that the bill had a tax that was worth more than contents of the package. Mark was annoyed because it was an "import tax for foreign friends" and Mark was trying to explain that the tax was waived for foreigner living and working in China by the Foreign Affairs Bureau (Salzman 41). If I was in the position of Mark I would have been furious about the whole package situation. I was even surprised that Mark did not react with anger, although he was annoyed, but I give him respect for acting calm at that time. Clearly in that situation, the woman acted disrespectfully to Mark because he was a foreigner. It seems that a citizen of China would have had an easier time receiving a package than Mark. Another thing I found unfair was that Mark was charged unfairly with the tax on foreigners because the tax was way higher than the medicine or candy in the package. How would you feel in this situation? Should Mark have acted more aggressively to the woman or remained silent as he was? - Steven Pabua
I totally agree Steve, Mark's reaction was just because he was promised that foreign tax was not applied people who resided and worked within the country and only applied to people who were passing through. Mark did exactly what he should have, going to the Foreign Affairs Bureau and trying to figure out what the deal is. the I found it funny when another American working at the college saw Mark's package and swiped it casually for him, they celebrated the fact that they beat this system in this foreign country. In the long run he had to pay a tax any way when they started withholding his mail for a few weeks. But in my opinion I would've just paid the tax and went on my way, arguing about the way a country does something is never really a good idea in today's world. -Acucuzza
I agree Steve, the mistreatment of Mark in that situation was shocking. I think another situation that Mark was unfairly treated in because he was a foreigner was with the rat. Mark was in the middle of teaching when a rat fell on his desk, he quickly swatted it. The students said he would receive a reward if he turned it into the Rat Collection Office. The office denied Mark the five cent reward sole on the fact that he was a foreigner. It ridiculous that just because he is a foreigner he wasn't allowed to receive the 5 cents.
The values of the Western and Eastern people differ greatly when it comes to the importance of guests. For example, Americans do not put their guests before their own family. This is completely different when it comes the Chinese culture. In China, foreigners are seen as people that come before their family. Iron and Silk is one example that displays this idea. After the narrator has sat down and eaten a beautifully made dinner, the leftovers are taken into a separate bedroom. The narrator, Mark, is shocked when he discovered that the man’s family has been sitting in the other room waiting to eat. Mark asks why they didn’t eat with them at the table. The owner of the home, Dr. Li, says, “That would be rude wouldn’t it? You are our guest after all” (Salzman 33). This event particularly shocked me, as well as the narrator, because this is not how we treat our family. At least in my family and most of the families I know, they come first. In Chinese culture, the narrator learned first hand that this value of family over guests is completely opposite. Your sons and daughter are something that should be shown off the guests to make them realize what a great family you are together and individually. After this, Dr. Li sensed Marks discomfort with this and invited them to all eat dessert together. Usually children would socialize with guests or at least try their best to participate in conversation. This was also completely different when Mark says, “Dr. Li’s children were to shy to carry on a conversation with me, but one did manage to ask me if American food was the same as Chinese food”(Salzman 34). One of the children did ask a question but was not as easily said, as it would have possibly been in an eastern environment. Finally, Western civilizations value guests differently then Eastern civilians would. Chinese in particular rule their guests as higher priority then their family. They are also not as open to discussion as Eastern families would be to their guests. -Acierno
Al, I defiantly agree on the difference in hospitality in Eastern and Western People. In China people do value guests more than they do in America and they also treat them with more respect. I was also shocked when I read the scene where Mark notices the man’s family waiting to eat in another room. It is amazing how two cultures can differ so drastically. Finally I also saw a difference in eastern and Western cultures when Dr. Li’s children were to shy to talk to Mark. I feel American children differ from Chinese children in the level of shyness and respect towards adults. -Jgranton
Al, I also agree with your topic about the respect of guests in the East, but I also feel that we respect guests here in the West. Whenever you have people coming over whether it is your father's business associate or even your aunts and uncles for a birthday, your mother always tells you to clean your room, wear something nice, and not to make a mess. We are respecting our guest by showing them ourselves and our home in its best possible state. The west shows respect to guests, but the East does a way better job of respecting their guests. -Anthony Venditti
Al, I agree with your point that the Chinese people respect guests before their own family. In Iron and Silk, Mark is looked upon like a god, he is treated with the utmost respect and is complimented for his looks numerously. Unfortunately, I completely disagree with your point that Americans do not put their guests before their own family. To say that Americans aren't respectful is completely subjective. For example, if you were at your vacation house in India and all of a sudden, a 10 year old boy knocked on your door begging for food and shelter. As an privileged American, I believe you would treat the young boy with the utmost respect and make sure he is fed and given shelter. As human beings, it is our duty to show respect no matter what our nationality is!
What's up Al. Although I could understand where you're point of view is coming from, I'd have to disagree. As this is the only real experience I have, I will speak about how my house treats a guest. When a guest comes over, we treat the guest as if the guest came home from a war. Almost overwhelming the guest with food, drink, comfort, and a great feeling of belonging. My family approach guests with the phrase "mi casa, su casa" in mind. But as I am not new to this hospitality toward guests, I am surprised that this level of hospitality is a custom, nationwide.
In reading Iron and Silk one thing that caught my attention is family value. A specific example of this is when Teacher Zhang speaks about his college experience in Hunan. He stated how he was depressed because his family lived in Beijing which is far away from Hunan and how terrible of place Hunan was, Several years later when Zhang was able to meet his parents he was thrilled. The whole train ride back to Beijing he was thinking of stories to tell his family but when he saw them he was speechless. No words came out only tears from his eyes and Zhang said that was his happiest moment (Salzman57-58). Salzman also has a story about a time he traveled to Beijing because his relative invited him to a restaurant famous for duck. He listed all the extravagant food they ate that how he enjoyed all of it(Salzman58). Another example was when the Fisherman was so excited to introduce Salzman to his family. The family liked Mark and treated him nicely. The fisherman explained to Salzman that treating people like family is the Chinese way. The fisherman also explained that the common people of China understand manners better than intellects (Salzman71-73). -Jgranton
James, I agree with your ideas of family values. Family values are strong in all parts of the world. The examples you used of missing your family after being away from them for a long time are very relevant to most of the students on this blog. Most of us are going to be going away to college in a couple of months. We are leaving our families and heading hours away. We will only see our family during the holidays and breaks. I know I'm going to miss my family and all that they do for me. Going away to college or leaving a country for work are two very similar things because you are leaving everything you love and know to go to an unknown place by yourself. The ideas of family values exist not only this work but in the world today. -Anthony Venditti
James, much like Anthony, I agree with your post on family values. They still exist and is a key part in families. I also agree with Anthony that your examples are key points, and are relevant for most kids we know today. I, for one, will be attending college and living at the school. I know I will not see my family as much as I do now. The love for my family, and the bond that we share will be affected because of the fact that I will not be around as much. I will miss them greatly, and the fact of going to place that I have not experienced before will be frustrating and saddening. Family vales do indeed still exist and will continue for generations. -Acierno
In the beginning of the book we are initially being introduced to the Chinese culture, and for me, it's the first time I've ever seen prime examples and personal encounters with these ideas. The customs always seemed a myth to me until I began reading Mark Salzman's Iron and Silk. What really took me by surprise was the comparison of Chinese and American ways with dealing with adulthood. This occurs on page 36 when Teacher Wei would give Mark advice on everything along with his studies, at times Mark got frustrated and said "in America Children become adults around the time they leave for college and like to make decisions for themselves after that." With that explanation Teacher Wei was appalled and confused how an American parent can let their child be independent so young, when they hardly know anything, she questions if they care about him. Teacher Wei then asks Mark that if she "didn't care about him wouldn't he be lonely?" This whole situation brought to my attention the difference between Chinese and American parenting, in China when a parent keeps you close and holds on to you into your early adulthood with strict rules and regulations it shows their affection for their child. While in America a parent who lets their child go off and concur the world on their own shows their affection for them, trusting that they taught the child what's right and wrong, although it is tough for the parents sometimes it shows they really care what is best for their child and is willing to suffer their loneliness for their child to be happy. -Acucuzza
Andrew great observation! I do find it interesting how parenting styles can differ around the world today. Freedom is the core element of this country, so it is no surprise to me that allowing children freedom is a parenting method here. I like to think of it as a living-learning environment here, where we learn mostly from life experiences, but of course still have a proper education. So it is good that we are granted that freedom as we are growing up. Where as in China it is seen that parents want their children in more of a educational environment. I just wanted to include an article I found from Stanford University on this topic. http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/may/asian-european-moms-052014.html
Both of you made very good points. I too felt that Salzman's memior was an eye opener of the customs and culture of China because I have never been there. Dave, I saw in your own blog post further down that you actually have traveled to the East and have personal experience. Do you feel that this memior gives a good example of the Chinese culture? I do agree with the both of you, the Chinese styling of teaching is very traditional and does seem to make them grow older. However I do feel that our country being based more of freedom when ot comes the college and education is a good thong, because it gives young individual their own chance to make decision and do things they love, rather than becoming an adult at to young of an age.
One thing I noticed when reading Iron and Silk was how the role of the parent is different in the Eastern culture than in the Western. In Chapter 2, the “Myopia” section, Mark agrees to teach a man’s son lessons on how to draw and in exchange the man would teach Mark how to speak Cantonese. It is important for the man’s son to learn how to draw as the boy is very near-sighted and will not be able to go to college and so it is his parent’s wishes that he learns a specific trade to help him succeed in life. The lessons soon begin, however, the young boy endures great difficulty imitating Mark’s drawings as he is barely able to draw a straight line. When his parents find out, they scold him harshly and heavily. As time went on with the boy still being scolded for not drawing properly, Mark thought about how he feels bad for the boy because he is doing what he is doing only to please and impress his parents and not for his own personal pleasure. The difference between Eastern and Western culture does not lie within the parents’ disappointment of their son, any parent can be disappointed in their son, but it lies within the parents’ expectations of the son. In the Eastern culture, the parents expect their children to be what they want them to be and not what the children themselves want to be. In the story, the child wanted to play sports, however, the parents were forcing him to draw. Here in the West, if a child wanted to be an accountant, his parents would most likely let him/her take on that occupation even though they may want him/her to be a doctor or a lawyer. I see this as a big difference between Eastern and Western culture because I feel like it limits the children’s imagination and desire to do something that they would love to do. ~AGirgis
Even though they are limited their success greatly increases due to this. China's does better on standardized tests than we do and that is for a reason; their parents push them harder. Have you ever noticed how at top colleges like Stanford and Harvard most of the students are Asian or Indian? These parents strictly enforce the rules in their house hold and makes the children prosper in life. http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/china-debuts-top-international-education-rankings/story?id=12336108
What really intrigued me was the idea of no children at the dinner table. When Mark visited Mr. Gong’s apartment, Mark noticed that his children were not at the dinner table. Mark very confused asks Mr. Gong why the children weren’t at the table and was told it would be rude. How is children at the dinner table rude?! This idea is so diferent from our American culture because I know in my household the children are suppose to be at the table and have the upmost manners. I wanted to know if this is true in Western culture today. From researching I’ve noticed that children do sit at the dinner table, even with guests present. However the children are expected to have the up most manors and respect to the guest. Some expectations are to sit up straight and feet under them, wait till everyone is given food to start eating, and to keep elbows off the table. Common knowledge to most of us. A lot of times I notice that at my family dinners are the there are actually two separate tables in the one dining room: One regular table for the older participants and one for the younger ones known as “the kid’s table”. I’m sure other people have different variations throughout the western hemisphere, but they mostly have the same concept of having everyone together and not have the children completely separate. -JGravina
I agree with you, Joe. I also thought it was odd that the children were not at the dinner table. The thought of not having children at the dinner table seemed crazy to me. Here in the west that is almost unheard of. Like you said even though some families may have a "kids table" and "adult table" they are still usually in the same room, so growing children can still spend time with their families and learn how they should act from watching the adults.
I agree with Joe and Greg that it is peculiar that children were not at the dinner table. I wrote something similar to this and was amazed when reading this section of the book. Greg made an excellent point with the idea of a kid’s table, and the idea that they are still in the same room. I do believe that they should be at least in the same room so they learn how to behave and act as adults. -Acierno
Salzman's memior Iron and Silk, truly captivates the values of the Chinese culture and tradition. The values of the Chinese are remarkable, although many may feel, it is bizarre to let a complete stranger stay at your home the Chinese value every person and believe in everyone. An example of this is seen when Salzman realizes that Dr. Li travels forty minutes by bicycle just to teach him the art Wushu. Salzman states, "I realized that he had been riding for forty-five minutes each way to teach me for the past month. (Salzman 33). Dr. Li does this because he values Salzman and the art of Wushu. Another time when Salzman sees the values of the Chinese is when he his teacher makes him drink Chinese rice liquor because they will be reading the works of drinkers and dreamers. Although many people may feel that it is very strange do drink with your teacher, the Chinese feel that they value the idea of learning and want to make sure that Salzman has a full understanding of the Chinese literature. (Salzman 29). The Chinese values and traditions are also seen through hospitality. An example in Salzman's memior when hospitality is seen is when the Chinese fisherman offers to let Salzman stay with him all because of his likeness to his boat and the Chinese. This is a time when hospitality of the Chinese is shown. All throughout Salzman's memior the traditions and values of the Chinese culture are truly shown in many different situations CCrocitto
Through Mark Salzman’s work, you really do see the values of Chinese culture, especially when it comes to respect for one another as you have talked about. Likewise, when Mark met with the fisherman again, Old Ding, he happened to just finish painting a picture. Mark as a gesture of kindness offered it as a gift to Old Ding’s grandfather, who accepted it very humbly. However, the grandfather and Old Ding discussed vigorously on an appropriate gift to give back to Mark. They decided on one of their few boats, but mark “, realized that situation was getting serious,” so he thought on his feet and said he would rather hear a folk song from each relative to “keep the feeling” of the painting. From this, its amazing how kind and far the Chinese people will go to show respect to their guest and honor their own values at any cost. Their small boat was a big part on how they survived everyday and really showed how much appreciation they have for one another and one another’s gifts.
Upon reading Mark Salzman’s Iron and Silk, I am utterly intrigued by the Chinese’s need of perfection in all that they do. They are a very prideful people and don’t like to appear weak. After Mark gives Mr. Gong’s son some drawing materials, he agrees to teach him how to use them. The whole family crowds around the two during his lesson, and they constantly scold the son whenever he makes the slightest mistake. Mark tries to show that there is no problem when he slightly messes up because it is a part of drawing, but his family doesn’t care. They want him to get everything perfect on his first try, and as a result of all these criticisms, he becomes nervous and all his drawing looks like “trembly, crooked lines” (Salzman 47-48). I find it strange that this kid’s parents wanted him to be perfect so much that they actually scolded him when he made such a tiny error. American parents would never care this much about how well their child draws. If anything, they would be happy that their child found something that they enjoy doing; especially if it’s something they can make a career out of. Many American kids today are lazy and just want to sit in front of a TV all day. Few kids actually want to do something artistic or something that requires deep concentration. Many American parents don’t even expect anything their child does in life to be close to flawless while the Chinese expect everything their child does to be perfect right from the start.
Carl I have the same opinion as you when you mentioned that American parents would not go that far as the family of the young boy and many of the other views you informed. Firstly, if I were Mr. Gong's son at that moment when Mark was teaching him how to draw I would be annoyed to have my family there watching me. My family would be so much stress and pressure because I know they want me to not mess up in front of Mark because he is a foreigner. Other than being a foreigner, my parents are expecting much of me because Mark is taking the time to help me learn and draw just like him. When you explained that American parents would not care that much about how well their child can draw, I agree because it is rarely seen today that American parents would do that although there may be a few who do. Lastly, it is true that Americans kids today are lazy unlike the Chinese kids who are yet again forced and pressured by their parents. The Chinese expect full potential in various things that they do. That is why any little mistake is a big thing. - Steven Pabua
One thing that I found interesting in reading Mark Salzman's Iron and Silk is how much people care for one another. Throughout Mark's living experiences in China he sees firsthand the love and caring that people have for each other, not to mention the streets of China itself (Sarcastic). The prime example of caring to me is when Mark is out practicing his Kung Fu early in the morning. Dr. Li however had to leave, but told Mark that he would return to help him master the technique. Mark later finds out that Dr. Li was traveling 45 min each way to help him. This to me is truly incredible because Dr. Li is helping a complete stranger master something that seemed important to him. I don't know about you, but I don't think I would travel 45 min to help a complete stranger. Dr. Li truly cared for Salzman because he made an effort to teach and travel every three days. This fact about Chinese culture really surprised me because in current Western Society, we really do not see this type of love and sharing that is seen almost every day in China. -VCal
I strongly agree with you Vin, Mark was very dedicated to learn Kung Fu every morning and I also feel that many people here in America wouldn't go out of there way to help someone they don't really know without getting some money. Even Old Ding a fisherman who invited Mark on his boat and gave Mark a choice if he lived with him and his family would buy him a boat.
You are spot-on, Vincent. I too see the love and care shown in this book. I for one would never go out of my way to help a complete stranger especially if it meant I had to travel 45 minutes to get to him. I also saw this care shown by Teacher Wei. In pages 38-39, when Mark returns from Wuhan, Teacher Wei is waiting for him so she can walk him home. This shocked me; he was just another student of hers, yet she made sure that he had someone to greet upon his return. Teachers in the west hardly ever have an association with students outside of school. You would never see one waiting to greet a student after that student went away for a weekend. You wouldn’t even see parents waiting to greet their child from the train. People in the west certainly do lack love and care for strangers. People in our society are more hostile towards strangers and usually just want to avoid them rather than help them.
I really agree with you on this Vin. You gave a good example of how eastern cultures are more about being together as one community. Where as in the east people are much more individualistic and are less likely to go so far out of their way to help someone. Especially if they are not going to be paid for their help.
After reading Salzman's Auto-Biography, I was disturbed with how China handles Suicide. When the woman hanged herself Mark asked what would happen? the answer he was given was not what Mark expected. It is frowned upon and considered a criminal offense to Chinese Law. Moreover, if the person happens to have any children then they would have to prepare for the worst. Where as they would have a hard time getting any job in any unit. The family members of the victim are then accused of leading on the suicide, the "incorrect thought" (Salzman 79) resulting in many punishments towards them. In America however, it is seen as a tragedy for the sorrowing family. As many friends and family gather to console and heal the aching heart of those who have lost. Where many ask why would he/she do this? what went wrong? even as far as to blame yourself for thinking you could have done to help them and be there more for them or assisted them in any way possible. Never once will suicide be considered a crime here in the America. However in the United States Suicide is taken seriously. Its a reach out for help, a time to mourn and a time to remember how many people suffer in silence. -BMorales
I agree with you, Brian. The first statement that was released about the suicide was that she didnt blame the governement. What kind of society do they live in where they have to tell people that the reason for suicide wasn't the government? There is obviously something wrong there, and there clearly was. There was also a five day period between the death and the memorial service. For those five days, everthing was kept a secret, and nobody really knew what happened. This is just an example of how the Communist government was keeping secrets from its people.
Wow, Brian. What you said about being disturbed upon reading the auto biography is completely relatable. It is truly a shame how after such a tragedy like losing a family member to suicide, the parents and other family members would have to suffer from even more hardships such as losing a job, etc. Reading this causes me to take pride in the country that we live in because we are kind enough to always empathize and send condolences to anyone who even remotely knows someone who has committed suicide. It is also heart warming to see memorials for these people in certian spots where the suicide may have taken place to show that they will always be remembered by friends, family and others. -NBowzeres
In reading "Iron and Silk," the part that stuck out the most to me was the Communist system put in place in China and the delusions of the people under the system. I first started to pick up on these feelings in the "Peking Duck" segment of the memoir, where Mark talks about the discussion around World War II during a time of free talk in his class. His students were raised to believe that the Chinese got the Japanese to surrender, and that America dropped the Atom Bombs to appear as the victors of World War II. I understand that yellow journalism, the distortion of news headlines to display nationalistic feelings, happens everywhere, but what his students said disturbs me. "But here in China, we have no reason to lie in the papers. When we make a mistake, we admit it...We love peace. If we were the most powerful country in the world, think how peaceful the world would be!" (Salzman 55). That quote makes me shudder, as China grows in power every day. This memoir was written about 30 years ago, and China has changed drastically. The Chinese have us by the throats economically. What's stopping them from concocting some nation-wide feelings of hatred for America and other countries standing in their way of a perfect world or economic dominance? The winner of a battle re-writes history, and an angry China that gets their way could make a "peaceful" world, if held unopposed by America and other countries. -DBerato
I’m happy that someone else realized how disturbing communist China can be, especially when their citizens are “delusional” or fooled by their government to believe whatever is put out. Going to the point you made about the “Peking Duck” part, its scary to believe that high leveled Chinese Teachers are so naïve to believe their governments yellow journalism. If they can believe that our country dropped the atom bomb just to prove ourselves victors, what else would they believe? What else have they believed is even the bigger question. Between page 78 and 79, they so far believe that suicide can be an offense to the Party and thus the family will be punished. Imagine that taking your own life can result your family being punished simply because people follow what their communist government says, no matter how insane it can be. Having the Chinese people being so arrogant of what their government does may allow the government to easy convince their people at any time to go to war for any reason. Thus Dean, I agree very much on your point of the Chinese people’s delusions in freighting communist China.
I am currently rubbing my hands together as if I were about to eat the greatest meal of all time. Dean you have made a beautiful connection. Let me just touch on your key points. The reason why China can not really cash in on our debt to them, is because their is now a "global economy", China putting a world power in an economic ditch, would not do China any good at this point in time. Where would the Chinese send their kids to school??? AND Mr. Dray, I'd like to touch upon your sentence "having the Chinese people being so arrogant of what their government does may allow the government to easy convince their people at any time to go to war for any reason". Dray, I know through my conversations with you that you probably won't agree, but our government does the same. America guarantees "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". The pursuit of happiness is really the pursuit of money. Because the other two parts of the American cannot be achieved without that paper. Our people are one track minded beings for the green, and that's what our economy strives off of. The illusion of freedom is just the fact that we get to pick which 9 to 5 we want and have control over how much money we make. In commy China you do not get to choose your job or your income. But in both situations, you're working all day. Dray, the fact that you're criticizing China for hypothetically going to war for any reason. as an American, you're throwing stones from a glass house. Most of America's wars could have arguably (strong arguments) been money motivated. In summary, anyone who listens to their government like they have the final answer is arrogant and/or ignorant. The government will always do what is best to keep themselves in power, like any other money making business. People need to learn how to do what is best for the world as a whole and not what is best for their country. Because at the end of the day your country doesn't love you. At the end of the day, Barry Obama isn't being handed an AR and strapping on a helmet, you are. If America's government collapses tomorrow I'm still going to be alive like ain't a damn thing change. Do you, not your government. Sorry Mrs. Foti for another rant.
The values of the western and eastern cultures vary differently from there morals and overall aspect on life. Mark Salzman portrays this point perfectly in his biography “Iron and Silk”. There are many instances in this book where we see this, one being his Kung Fu teacher, DR. Li. He travels 45 minutes every day to a place with a long history of war, to show mark Kung Fu. He does not get paid nor does he benefit from helping Mark, but does so anyway. This act is contrary to what we see in the west where we are more focused on the individual and our own self advancement than advancing the community around us. The east has more of a sense of community, where if one person is lacking in some way, it is everyone else’s job to help that person. This really surprised me when I read this, due to the fact that I was brought up in a society that does not follow that type of life style anymore. This saddens me since, the eastern society, seems to be a much more sharing and loving community that focuses on bettering the society rather than just improving yourself. –Nick Scogs
Good point nick I also believe the east does show more care about others than the west does in certain ways, especially in the teacher to student relationship. As you said he does not get paid or really benefit for helping mark but he does it anyway because he is his teacher, you don't really see this sense of commitment to others in the west as much as in the east and you see that the west doesn't really follow this style of life anymore, most people are only out for themselves.
I agree Scogs. From seeing how Dr. Li acted to Mark it reminds me of the morals behind the Catholic Religion. Jesus taught us to always help those in need no matter who they are because we are all God's children. Dr. Li is helping Mark out of the goodness of his heart, inevertinatly following Jesus's message. When Jesus saw Mary Magdalene getting stoned because she was a prostitute, Jesus, not knowing who she was, stepped in and helped her saying, "Ye who is without sin cast the first stone." Obviously they have all sinned before so the stoning stopped and Jesus saved Mary. Just how Jesus just out of the goodness of his heart saved her, Dr. Li helped Mark just because he needed it.
Looking at American and Chinese civilization is like looking at night and day. One idea that is important to mention is the sheer determination that the Chinese people have in order to master any type of task. They are willing to put their bodies and years of their lives in order to say they are perfect in a certain set of skills. An example of this is seen through Salzburg's master, Master Pan.The first example is seen when Mark is is distraught after failing to masterba fighting style, he is so discouraged that he goes to ad his master whether he should even continue his training. He met with scolding from his master, which included the following statement,"In my whole life, I have never started something I did not finish."(Salzburg, 86) This powerful statement shows that when a man starts a task, he can't bring himself to stop until he is finished. A second example is shown when Mark is shown learning how to throw a weapon. Where if he fails to do it correctly than it is likely that someone is going to get hurt. After the excercise, Mark asks his teacher if he is ever scared to make a mistake. The response he gets is that, " I never make mistakes."(Salzburg, 90) This boastful statement shows that a man should not only pursue to learn a task, but should strive to be perfect at it. The American and Chinese civilizations both have their strong points. But recently America has become a society where if sometimes we are faced with a situation we just quit because we are afraid to fail. I order for us to become a stronger people, I feel we need to adopt the Chinese ideal of an iron determination. Where each of us have the will to start something ad no matter what, master this skill.
I agree with what Joe said about the differences between Eastern and Western cultures. After reading Salzman’s Iron and Silk, I saw a major difference regarding the Chinese and American cultures. I believe that man can see things through the end when handling a task, but you have to be hard on yourself to accomplish such tasks. I like the quote Joe used because it showed Mark backing down easily from a challenge but at the same time, it shows Pan never quitting something he already started it. I enjoyed this because it shows Americans, in a way, being lazy and not hard on themselves, therefore, accomplishing tasks can be difficult at times. On the other hand, this quote depicts Chinese people as hard working people and motivated enough to finish what they have already started. Based on the examples Joe provided about Mark’s lessons with his various teachers, I now see and understand the differences between these two separate cultures. - A Carlo
I do agree with you Joe about how determined the east is when it comes to mastering what they started but I also disagree with Joe when he said that American society is the type of society that quits because we are afraid to fail. America is one of the most prosperous countries in the world and we didn't get that way by quitting the things we start out of fear.
So i disagree with joe that the east is a more determined culture then ours, yes easterner's work hard and have good ethic's concerning productivity and Mark observed that firsthand when he taught Mr.Gong's son to paint. Yet i do agree that american's are not known to quit, everything we do suggest's the gratification that victory will give us, sports, hard work in our job's, and the pursuit of our educations. However, mike because we don't quit does not make our society the model of perfection throughout the world... America is slowly becoming decadent through our success, i wouldn't say we are the most prosperous in the world especially compared to western Europe.
So i disagree with joe that the east is a more determined culture then ours, yes easterner's work hard and have good ethic's concerning productivity and Mark observed that firsthand when he taught Mr.Gong's son to paint. Yet i do agree that american's are not known to quit, everything we do suggest's the gratification that victory will give us, sports, hard work in our job's, and the pursuit of our educations. However, mike because we don't quit does not make our society the model of perfection throughout the world... America is slowly becoming decadent through our success, i wouldn't say we are the most prosperous in the world especially compared to western Europe.
Wushu is a Chinese sport developed from traditional Chinese Martial Arts. In Mark Salzman’s work "Iron and Silk" he goes to the local Sports Unit and meets a man named Pan. Pan is one of the world’s best wushu fighters: earning the title “Iron Fist” (Salzman 64). Since wushu is obviously an important subject to the author whom has been learning it since a young age, I wanted to know: is wushu really as popular as Salzman describes? So I did some research and spoke on the phone with a Chinese foreign exchange student named Ann’y who currently lives with my friend Tom Pisciottano. I asked Ann’y if the sport was popular in China and she told me that it certainly isn’t the most popular thing at least in the city she comes from but there was plenty of gyms that taught and practiced the sport. Judging from my research, Wushu has a bigger following in smaller cities and more rural areas of China. In the United States, wushu (or Kung Fu) is mildly popular while there’s significantly more stores that teach Karate lessons (possibly due Mr. Miyagi?). While martial arts as a whole is slowly gaining popularity in the United States, Wushu has long been established in China and other Asian countries. Right now Wushu isn't as popular as the NFL in the United States, but in China and other Asian countries there is possibly just as many people that practice some form of Wushu as there are Americans who enjoy football. There is an International Wushu Foundation that promotes Wushu as a sport for the entire world.
Mark Salzman brilliantly portrayed the Chinese culture with their art forms and exquisite customs in Iron and Silk. From their delicious Chinese food to their overall beautiful styles of writing, Chinese culture has always peaked my interest. In addition, I have appreciated how difficult calligraphy was and- to be honest, I had the same impression of Mark’s teacher as he did. When Mark arranged for a calligraphy lesson, he expected “that all good calligraphers had to be old men with thin, white beards.”(Salzman 92) This is a very common stereotype that Westerners have towards people in the East simply because we picture calligraphers and martial arts instructors as men like Mr. Miyagi from The Karate Kid. Although a lot of Americans express the stereotype that old men with beards do karate in China, in contrast a lot of Chinese refer to all Americans as “fat” and “lazy.” Many Chinese who practice Calligraphy must concentrate and put everything into performing each intricate stroke. However, most Americans that write almost everyday put barely any effort into it, writing so sloppy that they themselves can barely read it. Reading this part of Mark Salzman’s autobiographical novel made me feel ashamed in my fellow Americans for being so lazy. Maybe if we all took some time out of our daily lives to concentrate more on things like calligraphy and martial arts, we wouldn’t be considered “fat” and “lazy” to other countries.
Donald, I concur with what you said about western stereotypes of the east. I also think about Chinese master martial artists as being old and being "wise" like Mr. Miyagi from Karate Kid. Though i agree with your idea of stereotypes i disagree with what you said about other countries changing their view of us if we spent more time on calligraphy and martial arts. If we spent more time working out, then maybe other countries would see us as less fat and lazy but our hand writing has nothing to do with it. I think that your analysis of how intricate and how extremely difficult it is to be a good calligrapher is accurate, though. Awesome post, man! -TZirngibl
There are many differences in eastern and western culture and these differences are the highlights of Mark Salzman's book Iron and Silk. One difference between the two cultures that I noticed was that the sense of family was different in the two cultures. When mark says that his mother played the piano it is assumed by the people around him that he also plays because someone in his family played. Teacher Wu then gets him a badly damaged piano and eventually the tools to fix it, even though he said he does not know how to tune a piano she assumes he does and gets him to try anyway. In the east it would be assumed that you follow the family tradition of playing the piano or that you would at the least know the basics of playing it, where as in the west we don't exactly have that strong of a family tradition in certain things, It seems as if the west has a stronger sense of placement on what the individual person wants to do instead of what he is expected to do.
Family is a HUGE part of eastern culture. Mike, remember when we had to read “Two Kinds” by Amy Tan last year for Ms. Guerriero? The Chinese immigrant mother kept forcing the little girl into learning to be a child prodigy in a dozen things and finally settled on the piano. This is because the mother had high expectations and believed in the betterment of her daughter. In Asian culture the parents practically live through their children. Their children’s success was their success. On the flip side, the idea of Filial Piety (Mrs. Reynolds taught us this in freshmen year) is the respect for one’s parents. As the parents sacrifice all for the children, the children’s duty is to not only meet but exceed their parent’s expectations and be as successful as possible in all aspects of life: financially, family, morally, and spiritually. Family values are strong in Chinese culture specifically because it was common place to have four generations living together. The reason why Teacher Wu expected Mark to be knowledgeable about pianos is because she would have expected her children to learn. In eastern culture, children do not get the freedom that western children get. Parents are much more involved in their lives in eastern culture. What we would consider a helicopter parent here in America is normal in places like China.
I agree with the point that galford brought up, being that the east has a much more sense of family than us here in the west. As I read i did think it was odd that they made him fix the piano, even though he no prior experience with one. The assumption of him knowing how to, due to the mother playing is bizarre in the west. We focus more on the person expressing themselves rather than passing down a tradition that the family has been doing for a long time.
Mike I completely agree with you. There is a big difference between the family lifestyle in the Eastern and Western cultures. In Mark Salzman's memoir there is multiple times where you can see the cultural difference. This happens multiple times especially with Teacher Wei. When Mark tells her that he has no one to send him off on his trip Teacher Wei offers to bring her entire family with her. And teacher Wei also waited for him when he came back because he had no other family there to welcome him and she told him it would be shameful. Also when Mark explains to her that at the age of 21 in America you are considered grown and an adult, Teacher Wei's response is that you are a still a baby at that age and you still need your parents to take care of you. So Teacher Wei obviously feels that the way of Chinese is much longer until they are considered mature and an adult. Also, when Old Ding invites Mark for dinner he doesn't have the biggest but but yet multiple generations in there for one guest. However here it is seen in the Western culture that the kids try to get away as soon as possible instead of staying and following their parents footsteps. Western culture is a lot less of a family orientated community than in the East. Also it's much more disciplined in the East than in the West as kids are being tutored the whole family watched and if they mess up the family barks at them. So the discipline and lifestyle in the Eastern culture is much different than in the West.
One thing I was appalled at was the filth littering the the Changsha city of more than one million people and the capital of Hunan Province. As a city filled with many citizens and a capital of the province you would expect that the city would be filled with happy people and would be clean. It is very much the opposite. The streets are filled with the constant blaring of the horns of automobiles in order to alert the pedestrians of their coming. The citizens seem to be very aloof when walking into the streets. You would think that their would be some type of police patrolling the streets so that pedestrians are safe. Also, Changsha is not very clean. It is described as refuse just being thrown out the window, rats the size of squirrels squished by car wheels on the road, and dust everywhere. If Manhattan looked like this I would be disgusted with the living conditions and such. While this is the case, people tend to be very hospitable to Mark despite their crappy situation. They go out of ways to give food when he visits and they even go out of his way in order to help him out. It could be possible that they are afraid to report the dirty conditions to the officials in fear of angering the Chinese government. it makes me wonder, if this area was modernized and the people had a say in the situation, would the people be more selfish? or would it instill more pride in their culture?
I definitely agree with what you're saying Dave. Changsha is just a representation of the rest of China, overcrowded and covered in soot. The quality of life on the surface is all these people crammed together living among the trash. However, when Mark steps into the home of a welcoming Chinese person, its as if the outside world doesn't exist to them, and the only people that matter are the family in the room and their guest. The communist system is meant to devalue the individual for the good of the country. The family unit in China has this indominable spirit that most are not bothered by their living conditions. You bring up a good point, what if the people take pride in their community? Well that would be the beginnings of capitalism. Individuals, not the government, take matters into their own hands, taking care of things their government can't or won't do. I think it would instill more pride in the community, as the people get to take some charge of their lives, not have the government tell them what to do. -DBerato
While reading “Iron and Silk” something that I noticed was hospitality in China. One instance of this was when Mark Salzman met the fisherman Old Ding. He was so excited to see a white man that spoke Chinese he invited Mark onto his boat. The fisherman took Mark down the river to his family where he had Mark surprise them with his ability to speak the language. Then they gave him lots of food and crowded around him to shake his hands and asking him questions (Salzman 71). Before bringing him back, Old Ding brought him onto a big river boat where they just walked in to meet the crew. None of this would ever happen in a western country. It is not a common thing in the west to invite a complete stranger from another country into your home to give them food and to meet your family. Also, going onto someone’s boat without being invited on to show off your new foreign friend is something that does not happen in western countries. There’s a much larger sense of community between the people in eastern cultures, where as in the west the people are much more individualistic and not as open to strangers. -Chad Garlisi
I completely agree with you Chad. I found Chinese hospitality to be more strange than anything, due to the fact that they offer hospitality to almost anyone they see. Your example given is great. I think its strange that Old Ding invited a white person who speaks Chinese (Mark) onto his point. You just don't see that in Western Culture. Most people in the West would probably just stare at complete stranger like that and just keep walking. The sense of community that you mentioned is seen everyday in Chinese (Eastern) Culture. Earlier in the book, Mark mentioned how people just walk into your house when they need something, they don't even wait for you to answer the door! If someone walked into each others house in the West, there would be major problems, as we are just not accustomed to this. And as for the idea of people in the West being more individualistic than the people in the East, I couldn't agree more! -VCal
I disagree completely chad. Though Mr. Wing did prove that Chinese hospitality is widespread and quite generous....i believe that him and others simply seek to profit from being hospitable to foreigners as it is assumed that every american that visits is very wealthy. I'm not saying that he himself was not friendly or nice at all, but realistically taking in Mark would've potentially brought his family wealth or at least some american dollars. Moreover, to think that here in American most people wouldn't offer hospitality it idiotic...small towns and communities and more often then not our neighbors will come to our aid and offer hospitality. Just because everyone thinks that each of us is out to get one another, or doesn't care doesn't mean that instances of hospitality don't occur in America.
Chad brings up good point, that we would not show this level of hospitality here in the west. In my opinion it is a shame that we do not practice this type of community here. We in the west are too focused on ourselves and the individual that we do not open ourselves up to outsiders. The fact that he brought mark on his boat and showed him to his friends was totally buzzard to me at first. Although as I got onto thinking about it, that kind of kindness and hospitality is needed. It can make the west a closer civilization, like the east is, and help us connect more with people from different cultures.
As I began to read through Mark Salzman’s Iron and Silk I couldn’t help but chuckle at all the Western stereotypes. On page 5 of the book Mark is in the process of having breakfast and with his every action he’s being critiqued by stereotypes of the typical American who will not only eat complete crap for breakfast but also by being gluttonous by ordering the Chinese style breakfast after he had already had the abysmal American style breakfast. I saw another stereotype on page 6 where, Mark and his friends the unknowing Americans are essentially paying top notch for things that they shouldn’t have to pay for, such as 2 separate luggage carriers and the most expensive seats on the train. The Chinese were exploiting the Americans stereotypically deep pockets. As I continued the book I realized another stereotype that an American with a college degree must be all knowing. On page 24 Teacher Wu bursts into his apartment and ask him in a way that he really cannot refuse to try to tune her piano even though he has tried to explain to her that he has never played. Mark is perceived to know how to do everything including fixing a piano. Once again foreigners are casting us as characters of our TV shows and commercials. Rather than understand who we are and how we live and why we live as we do they take everyone of our actions and compare it to what they glean from social media.
I agree with what you said Chris as Mark Salzman has been judged and been discriminated by a few people in this book, who have shown to either only judge Salzman based on his actions, which in Eastern Culture are highly frowned upon, such as his eating habits as well as his choice of food to eat, first with the ham sandwich that he had to begin with that the Peoples Liberation Army man made a comment saying how it was beyond him that a foreigner is able to eat that sandwich at an early time in the morning. This shows the ignorance that the PLA man has towards Western Culture and our eating habits, as he discriminates and shows disgust in Salzman’s choice of breakfast, which many Americans have. I also agree with your statement about the Eastern Style food that Salzman orders when the train attendant comes to him asking if he wants anything else to eat. The PLA man has the audacity to comment on Salzman’s diet and basically call Salzman a glutton from the West with no sense of limiting his food intake. The PLA man most certainly comments because of his authority as a soldier in Chinas communist regime who enforce the laws of this strict country, and sees Salzman as nothing more than a capitalist pig.
I would have to disagree with you here, Chris. On page 5, Mark is not in the process of having breakfast, but instead he is in the process of beginning his day by contemplating the way of life and how it's different for everyone. He looks at Americans who do not eat complete crap for breakfast and indulge in the luxuries of life by ordering the Chinese style breakfast. This so called stereotype on page 6 shows that there are many ways to observe the situation. Mark and his friends, the unknowing Americans, are essentially paying top notch for things that they shouldn’t have to pay for; such as 2 separate luggage carriers and the The Chinese were exploiting the Americans stereotypically deep pockets. As I continued, I realized that the story numbs the reader. All subsequent events that follow the development of Mark's character fail to highlight any of his weak attributes that are key for the story's progress.
Every part of the world has their own morals and ethic values. As portrayed in Iron & Silk the eastern civilization is much different than the western civilization. The theme that really stood out to me was the teacher and student relationship, the way how teachers interact with their students out there in the east is foreign to the west. A great example in Iron & Silk is Teacher Wei, Salzman wrote of Teacher Wei, "She pointed out that the close relationship between teacher and student has existed in China since before the time of Confucius and should not be underestimated" (Salzman 36). Teacher Wei says that he's so far away from and if she doesn't care for him he'd be lonely. This is an expression of genuine care, most often not expressed in the west but she goes above and beyond as to caring. Mark was taking his first trip in China and she got so worried and asked him so many questions. In the west it is normal for a teacher to be curious about a student's personal life but she got so anxious just like a mother would and that's what she meant by the close relationship. I feel that this close relationship is similar to a relationship between a parent and child in the west but definitely not like the east, the kids are criticized all the time and very obedient. When Mark got off the train back in Changsha he heard Teacher Wei call his name and he asked her what she was doing there and she said, "How shameful would it be if no one greeted you when you came home" (Salzman 39). If I got off a train and my teacher was standing their waiting for me I'd feel a little freaked out but things like this are normal in the east. I don't think any teacher in their right mind would take the time out to greet you when you get back home from a trip, that would take some serious stalking but it's different in the east because the teacher and student get so close that they're like family. It is understandable why they do this, someone who's educating you and helping you mature has a big impact on your life so they feel the need to get to really know you. A teacher out here just teaches their classes and goes home, they don't care to find out about your personal life. This is what separates the east and the west on the teacher and student theme, nevermind getting drunk before your lessons.
That is a good observation you made about the teacher student relationship in China. I can definitely understand why you would admire how students and teachers are so much more concerned about each other in the east then in the west. Someone who is trying to help you grow and prosper should definitely be treated in high regards. However, I disagree with how you feel about being greeted by a teacher in public. It would be a good feeling to know that your teacher is truly concerned about your personal life and doesnt just make it like they do in class because its their job. Although some Chinese customs such as drinking before lessons may not be the most the educated things to do, teachers and students do seem to share a bond that may have an impact on the way a student views the class. -NBowzeres
Throughout Mark Salzman's work of "Iron and Silk" it's shown clearly that in the Eastern Culture learning is never ending. Usually in the Western culture, once we graduate college many people do not have to urge to learn anymore, we may pick up trades but the want and need to learn are dropped after college in the West. However, in the Eastern Culture, especially seen in the book, whenever Mark wants to learn something someone is willingly to teach, but they want to learn English as well. It's almost an exchange of expertise, there is no monetary value involved, it's just the notion of 'I will teach you something, if you will teach me something.' It's valuable in the East, they always have the desire to learn more as they believe that it relates to other areas of learning. Such as when Pan relates learning English to learning wushu, it starts with the basics and then comes in phrases. Hai Bin also mentions something similar when teaching calligraphy to Mark that painting and wushu would be a skill that would carry into the other. So throughout most of Mark's experiences he would become a student and a teacher at the same time. There is such an exchange of power and the Eastern Culture enjoys always learning new ways so when they have the chance to learn they want to and will repay them with knowledge as well, not monetary value. With this observation, it is seen that in the East learning is always a part of life, unlike in the West where it ends at college.
That's an interesting observation Sean, I never really thought about education in the east that way. I feel that many people in the west are not as interested in learning as the people of eastern culture. Many people in America look forward to being finished with school. The people in china are always eager to learn new knowledge. People in America spend money in order to learn something. For many people it can be seen as more of a business opportunity rather than a way to better society.
Very interesting blog, this is true. We all know the Eastern stereotype as Asian people being smart. This is a solid example of why they have this stereotype, they are always open and happy to learn no matter what. An Eastern individual's life revolves around expanding their brain capacity. When Mark asked Wu if he could teach him Chinese Wu saw this as the perfect opportunity to learn English, an eye for an eye. You made a good point talking about the exchange of power and repaying with knowledge as well; in America an exchange of power would require would money and that's all people want in the West but out there knowledge is powerful and might even be more important than money to them. People from the East come to the West just to get a better education so this is proof that education is their main motive, their mindframe is only education promotes success and internal peace. MNewman
I completely agree. There seems to be far more motivation to learn in the East than there is in the West. One reason for this may be the student-teacher relationship established in the East. As demonstrated by Salzman's lessons with Pan, Eastern teachers are extremely dedicated to teaching their students. Pan gives Salzman one-on-one lessons, despite the fact that he has many other students to teach as well. In addition, Pan himself becomes a student of Salzman, and tries to learn English from him. This brings up another point: many people in China have a fascination towards learning English. People in China recognize the difficulty of learning a foreign language, as seen whenever Salzman speaks to someone in Chinese. One particular scene where this happens is when Salzman is in a painting shop. Master Lu is so impressed by Salzman's ability to speak Chinese that he promises to paint a landscape for him (Salzman 158). A similar scenario happens in Professor Jin's home, where he is amazed that a westerner is capable of writing Hanzi (Chinese characters). However, Salzman eventually becomes annoyed by these reactions. On a train in one scene, he refrains from talking as people would otherwise start questioning him about what America's like.
This is very insightful Sean, i agree. Like you said it does seem that our education really does end right after college, compared to the east where any chance to learn is welcomed with enthusiasm. It's actually pretty pathetic that all we value is a piece of paper that states we actually know what were doing when really a college grad who becomes a doctor could be a terrible doctor. This actually is really widespread in our society, My dad for instance once worked with a kid who just finished college. Yes he had a bachelor's degree but that did not mean that he had any technical experience or ability to actually work effectively. My point, your argument makes a lot of sense and to add to it, we only learn really information, rather than physical hands on experience which is certainly more effective.
What really stood out to me as I read the first half of Mark Salzman's Iron and Silk is how the people of China react to a foreigner. I know China's morals are very strong and they show the upmost respect for their guests, but some of the people he encountered were literally in awe. They even go as far as saying that Mark was the "perfect foreigner" because he had blonde hair and blue eyes. Also, when he goes and buys his bike so that he doesnt have to take the bus anymore, (because they're filthy and overcrowded) he is able to choose his own bike, and everyone is literally amazed. He even told us that it was sort of uncomfortable for him when he said:"... feeling self-conscious, as if I had just walked into a car dealer, paid for a Porshe in cash, and driven it through the floor-to-cieling showcase windows"( Salzman 26). This is totally different from the way we treat foreigners here; either we don't even bother with them, or we try to take advantage of them. Makes you think about if these streets are really "paved with gold" like they used to say. Maybe fools gold, but certainely not the gold that is perceived to be there.
I agree with you Greg, that Eastern Culture and Western Culture treat their foreigners differently, but for a different reason. Some areas of China never receive foreign visitor, like the Fishermen brothers and their family. The children have an irrational fear of him, thinking he is a ghost, with his pale eyes and white skin. Mark even recounts that when he met Liang, he was afraid to speak to him because he thought there were lights in his eyes that scared him (Salzman 170). They are in awe because they lack exposure to other people, which is seen with the wonder Mark faces, or the ostracization the black medical student faces when he talks to Mark. Here in America, it appears we ignore foreigners, because there are so many of them. Everyone has a link to a foreigner, which is what makes America so great. We all understand the struggle an immigrant faces because a family member of ours once faced this problem at some point in their life. Most families aren't even too removed from that long boat ride over to our country. To me, immigrants here aren't ignored, they're mutually understood by everyone, so they don't get alot of attention. These streets are still paved with gold, you just don't hear about it because the immigrants are too busy sweating and toiling for a better life, taking jobs most people wouldn't think to take. You see the American dream in action all over the island. businesses that were once run by Irish, German, Italian families, are being taken over by largely Mexican workers who learned the business, kept their heads down, and now are capable enough to keep a business running. The streets are paved with gold, you just have to dig alittle deeper now-a-days. -DBerato
One of the most significant themes i picked up on throughout Mark Saltzman's Iron and Silk was the overwhelming concept of individualism vs Socialism. The notion in which we must rely on ourselves and utilize rugged determination and an survival of the fittest ideology is completely contradictory to Chinese socialist view point. For instance, during one of Mark's lessons with the professor Wei, she becomes mystified by the fact that Americans usually transition to adulthood through their departure to college. Wei states "Then how can they leave you stranded when you are just a child". (Saltzman 36). Essentially, our capitalistic society ingrains into our heads the common notion that we must adapt to survive, we must become individuals as soon as possible. I totally believe in backwardness of this ideal, at our age we are not ready to accept the responsibilities of adulthood nor are we capable of truly becoming self sufficient productive citizens. I firmly believe that Ms. Wei has a very valid point, even in our individualistic society those that achieve the highest are supported from birth to succeed in their said specific goal. NHL players for instance have been through years of training camps, tournaments, practice, etc throughout their entire life simply to have a chance at playing on the national stage. As much as i hate the concept of socialism or communism, this does not mean that we cannot rely on other's such as our parents of friends to enable us to become successful members of society. Sometimes a little (or a big) push is all someone needs to accomplish great things
One thing that really stands out to me in Iron and Silk are the differences of the living conditions between China and America. Salzman discusses how poor and disgusting these conditions are specifically in the beginning of the book. For example, Mark has to take a bath after just simply riding a bike. The streets and air were so polluted and dirty that he felt he had to bathe immediately. In America the streets and air are almost always clean, and a task such as riding a bike is sanitary and safe. Also, Mark discusses how doctors and medicine weren’t as accessible and advanced in China. He struggled for several weeks trying to find medicine for Athlete’s Foot. In America, this medicine can be accessed at a drugstore instantly. Americans can take some things for granted, we are all very lucky. Another part of Salzman’s memoir that stood out to me was when Teacher Wu expected Mark to tune the piano on his own. As a musician, I was able to relate to this scene immediately. Tuning a piano properly is a difficult job, especially for someone who has never done it before. The fact that Wu thought that Mark could tune it so easily shows that Chinese people of eastern culture could think very highly of Americans. The Chinese of that time did not know about life in America or know much about American culture. I feel like the mystery of western civilization made these people believe that Americans were extremely talented and could do many things so easily. They admired this.
I was thinking the same thing when I was reading the book, imagine looking fresh and you don't have an access-a-ride in the area so you need to take a bike and you show up to your destination with smudges on your outfit. That would not be good or the polluted air chokes you to the point you faint on the bike and get hit by an oncoming car. These are some possible scenarios that could happen in the East and I completely agree with you on Chinese people admiring us. Maybe they try so hard to educate themselves because they don't think they're on our level meanwhile they're 10 levels higher. Good blog. MNewman
Upon reading Iron and Silk by Salzman, what really caught my attention is the presumptuous culture of the western hemisphere. It's intriguing to read how Salzman establishes the fine line between where hospitality ends and rudeness begins. Salzman does a great job introducing the question of how imposed hospitality can be portrayed as coarse. Throughout the autobiographical novel, Mark witnesses, first hand, several accounts of this underlying motif. One particular example is When old fisherman Ding drags mark aboard a complete stranger's boat, just to introduce to him his new American friend. Ding automatically assumes that his presence is welcomed due to the idea that hospitality is implied in eastern culture. He disregards the notion that his action may be rude, ignoring the possibility that his actions might be taken as offensive when he enters on the boat without permission. Another example is when teacher Wu has a broken piano and learns that Mark's mother was a pianist. she presumes that Mark, too, must know a lot about pianos due to his mother's musical gift. Not only does teacher Wu assume Mark is musically talented, she also expects that he would fix her broken piano. Teacher Wu shows up at Mark's house early in the morning with the tools to repair her piano before asking if he had the experience to fix the piano. Teacher Wu disregards the probability that her course of action may be deemed as rude. Due to the presumptuous nature of the eastern hemisphere, both fisherman Ding and teacher Wu are inattentive to how Mark perceives their actions. They automatically assume the idea that hospitality goes both ways, disregarding the the fact that imposed hospitality can be perceived as rude.
I don't think that the people in China are "disregarding" the fact that imposed hospitality can be perceived as rude. Rather, i think that they are just naive of how Western culture really is. Most of the people that Mark meet probably haven't been outside of China. Teacher Wu only assumes that Mark knows how to tune a piano because his mother played piano, and if in China your mother played the piano, so did you. Teacher Wu is not disregarding the fact that her actions can be perceived as rude but she is just treating Mark as she would treat anyone else. -TZirngibl
Thanks for the input Tim. But wouldn't you say from a third person's point of view that her actions were indeed ignorant? Just because an individual has never been outside of his or her native country doesn't mean they didn't have the opportunity to learn about other cultures and take action from an intellectual point of view other than simply acting on what is considered the norm? I find it rather ironic because she was in fact a TEACHER!
I have to agree with Tim on this one. From what I have read and understood I believe that the people of China are not disregarding that imposed hospitality can be looked at as rude. A good amount of people that mark met haven't been out of China which makes them unaware of how culture is outside of China. I don't think it was rude for them to assume mark can play piano in there culture that's what they did if your mother played piano so did you. The teacher could have asked maybe but in there culture it isn't rude to ask someone if help if they think they have knowledge on the matter. Snic
One thing that really stood out to me in Mark Salzman’s Iron and Silk are the living conditions in China compared to where we live. The one scene that stands out to me the most is on page 128 when Mark is watching the fisherman family and their friends using the river as their toilet and then proceeding to wash their face and neck, then brushing their teeth, and they even gargled the water and spat it out, in the same water they just defecating in. What’s worse is when Mark refuses to bathe in the water himself they tell him that "it was an odd thing that Americans, who supposedly live in a fantastical future-world, know so much about personal hygiene". This stood out to me because of just how dirty and polluted that river because the family has to use this river as their toilet often, and yet they seem to have no sense of disgust when they use it to wash themselves. I think that it shows how poor the living conditions really are as the family clearly thinks its normal, even quite clearly thinking poorly of Mark for not using the recently used river as his shower and bathroom, while here in America, even in most civilized countries, this would be considered disgusting and dirty.
In the movie Slumdog Millionaire we get a peek at an eastern culture (India) in the poorest sections of the society. In one scene we see Jamal locked in an outhouse and his favorite actor was landing in a helicopter nearby. The only way for Jamal to get out was to jump into the pool of feces at the bottom and run out to his hero covered in human feces to get the picture signed. In that movie we see a lot of how he had to survive as a child in the dirtiest of conditions. We see things that any American would cringe at seeing such as kids playing in a stagnant puddle of disgusting water. However Anton I am inclined to disagree with you, those types of conditions are not limited to China or eastern culture. Those types of conditions are merely the result of being in slum conditions and can be seen in the favelas in Brazil, Ghana in Africa, and cardboard city in Serbia. More than one billion people worldwide live in these types of places and they dot the entire globe. Because of our easy city life in America, we are appalled at these conditions that people call home. It is hard for any of us who are fortunate enough to have such a high standard of living and financial stability that we never have to endure any of this but there are those even among us who have to live like that such as people who lost everything after losing their jobs or veterans who cannot find a job after returning from Afghanistan and are forced to live on the streets in conditions not much better than those you mentioned.
One of the major themes of the book Iron and Silk is the stereotypes of those people from the West. One of the stereotypes is when he is on the train and he decides to order an American breakfast. While he is ordering he hears the people behind mumbling to one another. This makes Mark Salesman not only uncomfortable but pressured to order the Chinese breakfast and that is what he does. They mock him for eating at 7 in the morning and then when he eats the two breakfasts he is mocked for being a glutton. The American breakfast is a hand sandwich an the Chinese breakfast is eggs and noodles. Another stereotype in the book is that when he is teaching his students world war 2 comes up. Students ask him “how do you feel, knowing your country dropped a bomb on innocent people.” Mark feels embarrassed and replied that is saved lives but the kids did not give up their argument. Mark is stereotyped for his country war tactics. The same way that Mark is stereotyped is the same way that we are all stereotyped. Everyone around the world hears comments and sly remarks whether it is about weight, nationality, or color of their skin from people of all walks of life. The stereotypes for White Americans’ are obese and lazy. Homer Simpson of the TV series The Simpsons is imitates this walk of life. Goths are stereotyped for wearing black clothes, makeup, and being depressed. Gay people today are stereotyped for their sexuality , so are African Americans for the color of their skin and the way they talk, and Chinese people as well for their eyes. Everyone around the worlds have their stereotyped and unfortunately people will always have an opinion of us but it is those who overcome these opinions are those who thrive in life just like Mark Salesman
In the novel iron and silk we see there are many differences in the eastern culture and the western cultures. Mark Salzmanreally depicts the differences in his novel. One difference between the east and west that is depicted is the importance of family. In the novel mark makes reference to the fact his mother played the piano and the people around mark start to believe he too must play the piano since his mother played. That’s a big difference because if someone was to tell me my mom plays the piano I would not think to myself that he must also play the piano. Another difference in cultures is the Kung Fu teacher who doesn’t get paid to help mark but still travels all the way to him in order for mark to learn. This is a difference because our culture it is hard to find someone who would do this. People expect to get paid to teach someone something whether it is Kung Fu or just simple tasks. We are more self-centered people in western culture we care about our own goals and prosperity. In the east they care more about the community as whole not just themselves but everyone around themselves. These to me were some pretty big differences in the two cultures. -snic
As many of my classmates have already discussed, the customs, actions, and way of living of people in the East is completely different from the way we live in the West. Iron and Silk by Mark Salzman shows the life and culture of those in the East lived through the eyes of a Westerner. There are many times throughout this work that these differences are shown, but one relationship stands out to me. The relationship between Mark and Teacher Wei is not only in the classroom, but they also spend time outside of it. Teacher Wei helps Mark adjust to the ways of the East. This is very different from the world we live in here in the West. In New York, it is illegal for students and teachers to be friends on Facebook. Here in the West, the student-teacher relationship is strictly professional. One encounter between Mark and Teacher Wei that stand out to me is when she makes him drink alcohol before class to better understand a drunk in one of the works they were reading. Teacher Wei would not only lose her job but she would be imprisoned for her actions here in the West. In the East, it is perfectly fine though because of the trust they have in each other. Mark trusted Teacher Wei. If a teacher in the West was caught going to a student’s house or giving them alcohol, it would be a disaster, but in the East, it is helpful to the students and it shows the students how the teacher really cares if they do well. Personally, I would be scared if my teacher came to my house or tried to give me alcohol, but in the East, this shows the care the teacher has for their students. The differences between the West and East show some of the major differences between the cultures in the West and East.
After reading Iron & Silk, you can easily spot out many differeneces between the cultures of China and America and even how they approach everyday situations. In China, many good morals are demonstrated although they live in such an uncivilized place. One example where we see how well Mark is treated as a foreigner by Chinamen is when we read "He had been riding for 45 minutes each way to teach me for the past month" (Salzman 33). It is crazy how Dr. Li would do such a thing everyday to teach wushu to someone who he didnt even know. He even went as far as to telling Mark that if he ever needed any extra help that he could come to his home. You would very rarely hear something like this happening in America especially when dealing with a foreigner. In China, foreigners are always treated with the utmost respect and in America some citizens may do the opposite. Characters such as Mr. Gong even seem hold Mark in higher regards then their own family. When Mark visits his apartment for dinner, he notices Mr. Gong bring their leftovers into another room where his children are. When Mark asks Mr. Gong why his children werent eating dinner at the table with them he says that it would be rude. In America, just about all parents are eager to show off their children to their guests. Anyone's children should always be valued over their guests. Hearing that Mr. Gong seems to be more worried about Mark then his own children makes Mark feel awkward because he has never heard of such a thing in America. These are just some of the differences we see in Western and Eastern values when reading Iron & Silk. -NBowzeres
Agreeing with you, Nick, it was clearly shown how different the Chinese and American cultures are. Americans seem to care more about themselves and the Chinese almost take on the role of a care taker and guider. There are many times in Salzman's memior where this is seen, one example that you did not touch base, is when the chinese fisherman on page 70. The fisherman offers to let Mark stay with. Here in America this idea of taking in a random stranger would be a rare occasion. I think that our cultures are very different because of our morals and beliefs. The Chinese culture is more for the peace and teaching and Americans are more on the side of benefitting for themselves only. After finishing the memior I too also feel the Chinese and Americans have very different cultures and customs. CCrocitto
Upon reading Iron and Silk I reflected back to my time traveling in the East. I see many similarities in the way that Mark has been treated throughout his journey, even though this story took place in the '80s. When traveling through major cities I often see how foreigners are taken advantage of. Once you are in the place you are staying with natives they are extremely welcoming just as Mark describes. I enjoyed traveling through the East and found that most people are incredibly welcoming and want to teach you about their culture and traditions. I know the example of the fisherman on page 70 has been used many times. It is a great example of how welcoming natives are to visitors of their country. -DBeyar
I agree with you David when you say that many of the natives are amiable when it comes to tourists. Even when I used to live in Vietnam, the vacationing tourists were always welcomed with open arms and entertained. But one particular experience that that changed my view about the Vietnamese natives was the fraudulent appearance they showed. As soon as the tourists were accommodated and entertained I would notice crude remarks or the demeaning stares that them. Their differences is what made them stand out, in a country based on conformity and culture, not individuality. Even in the novel during the train incident. The workers would charge the American tourists more than the initial fee or mock the tourist(Mark) for eating his "American sized Breakfast". Things are not always what they seem. Although there are genuinely good people of every nationality, I feel as if the society we live in today shuns cultural differences rather than embracing them. Being in New York, I would always hear degrading remarks about the tourists who come to visit New York City. I'm sure if some Americans belittle Asian tourists for their differences today, other countries do the same to us. This is just from my experience and opinion as a native as well as a tourist, I am not claiming that no one embraces differences in culture or race.
After reading Iron and Silk by Mark Salzman, I learned a bunch of information about the eastern world. One topic that I found very interesting was how politics in the east have some similarities to politics in the west. With that said, China is still a communist government. One similarity between western and eastern government is that both make the people aware of how the economy and government is doing. Salzman talks about China's National Day. The government holds a banquet for the foreigners, and before the banquet begins the government speaks to the people about the state the nation is in. The official of the provincial government gives a, "brief review of current political, economic and social issues affecting the province." (Salzman 161). This is very similar to what the United States does. We call it the State of The Union. The president addresses the nation, and tells us how our economy is doing, the policies passed, certain statistics, and what we can see in the future. What is interesting about these similarities is that even though the east is communist, the government still believs that the people should know what is going on and how they are doing. After reading Iron and Silk, I was able to understand how eastern government operates. -MTranchina
The cultures of the East and West have many significant differences among the types of people who inhabit each. Mark Salzman’s biography entitled “Iron and Silk” vividly portrays these differences among American and Chinese people. As demonstrated by the life of Mark, the Chinese population is uniquely cultured and highly educated. From a young age, Mark became very interested in Chinese culture and later began to study it at Yale. After graduating, he landed a job teaching the English language at Hunan Medical School in China itself. While in China, Mark tries to further expand his knowledge on Chinese culture by learning common Chinese activities such as calligraphy, Chinese art, and martial arts. These cultural activities are valued very highly to the people of the Chinese culture, and they hold a sort of respect for them that most Americans do not hold for their culture. For example, Mark’s Kung Fu teacher, Dr. Li, travels 45 minutes every day to teach him the art of Wushu. Dr. Li receives no form of payment or services in return for his labor, but he simply does it our of love for his culture as well as respect for the art form. In America, most of us are portrayed as lazy and greedy so this type of behavior is not expected. The Chinese take a vast amount of time to educate themselves on different languages and subjects that are important to one’s intellect. They strive for perfection in every detail of their lives. Americans on the other hand care more about personal interests as opposed to scholarly education. We merely do what needs to get done and leave time for relaxation whereas the Chinese are always extending themselves. -TB
I agree, the East and West have are very different when it comes to education. Both the U.S. and Chinese school systems have strengths and weaknesses but in China the teachers are respected more and the teachers have more respect for what they are teaching like Dr.Li He travels that 45 minute trip without any pay because he has passion for what he teaches and encourages the continuation of people learning it. Therefore, if schools in the American public school system were to incorporate the positive aspects that make the Chinese school system so successful, schools in America would in turn be more successful. The Chinese are driven by perfection. Not only by educating themselves in the classroom but perfecting perfecting other things like Martial Arts. The Chinese are a more well-rounded people with higher standards then in education than ours. ARainero
After reading Iron and Silk by Mark Salzman, I learned a lot of information about the eastern world. One topic that I found very interesting was how politics in the east have some similarities to politics in the west. With that said, China is still a communist government. One similarity between western and eastern government is that both make the people aware of how the economy and government is doing. Salzman talks about China's National Day. The government holds a banquet for the foreigners, and before the banquet begins the government speaks to the people about the state the nation is in. The official of the provincial government gives a, "brief review of current political, economic and social issues affecting the province." (Salzman 161). This is very similar to what the United States does. We call it the State of The Union. The president addresses the nation, and tells us how our economy is doing, the policies passed, certain statistics, and what we can see in the future. What is interesting about these similarities is that even though the east is communist, the government still believs that the people should know what is going on and how they are doing. After reading Iron and Silk, I was able to understand how eastern government operates. -MTranchina
In Iron and Silk, its obvious that Chinese and Western culture are polar opposites. On several occasions we see how welcoming the Chinese are to foreigners. For example, on page 92-93 we see that the Mark Salzman's name had circulated through local mentors. Once he had put it out there that he wants to learn Calligraphy, he had an answer and his mentor, Hai Bin, had been at his door not long after. There is an amazing sense of community among the Chinese. For example on page 94, Hai Bin had gone to Mark's place of practice for wushu and had motivated him not to take breaks and to keep pushing himself. At one point, Hai Bin had caught him practicing his Calligraphy when he was supposed to be practicing wushu. On the other hand I also saw a hint of the kind of disrespect that we see all too often here in America. On page 97, two liumang, or punks, had seen Mark and company reveling at artwork and had purposely dropped cigarette ashes on the artwork. I found it quite funny as to how the Chinese view us Americans. For example on page 98, Hai Bin refers to the large rate of divorce in America that usually occurs in a few months following the marriage. The Chinese also find it outrageous that we have such ridiculous imagination in our Literature ~CSheridan
Mr. Sheridan, I did find it really interesting that Salzman's name had circulated all through town to the local mentors. It was almost this unique connection of people looking to educate each other. It's so interesting because in America there aren't really too many mentors who are willing to train others in an eastern style of teaching. When Salzman studies with these mentors, I feel the mentors all truly care about Mark learning the skill. It's just interesting because the teachers in china have such a different approach to their students compared to the teachers in the United States. But I do agree that we do see an occasional amount of disrespect as we see here in America, but you can't expect everyone to be completely respectful, especially with such a large population.
Sheridan, i disagree with your statement as which you say "how welcoming Chinese are to foreigners." Yes, it is true that that Marks name circulated around the community but that doesn't justify saying that China's overall perspective on foreigners in general is a positive one, especially towards America. The incident on the train, for example, demonstrates how utterly judgmental the Chinese could be on an outsider. They seem to be quick to judge and very ignorant to the facts. However, i do agree with you that Mark is accustomed to behaving a little disrespectful coming from America. The Chinese have more respect for their teacher then we do here in the West when compared to the east. ARainero
There are major differences between the Eastern and western culture portrayed in Mark’s Salzmann Iron and Silk. A key difference is east opposed to the west is the overall life/health status in China. Mark stated that he seen people just throwing trash out their windows and peeing in the street. Meanwhile in the west you will rarely ever see that happening in everyday life. Another major difference in the eastern culture is the way people greet each other. Throughout Iron and Silk the eastern people constantly greeted each by title professor, comrade and even teacher. Normally in the western society we would greet each other by the title of Mr. and Mrs. Another major differences is how some eastern people truly don’t think for themselves and entirely believe in the government. In addition to believing in their government there is not a whole lot of self-opinion in China as well. For example on page 54 Mark and his students were discussing World War 2. When he asked for teacher Zhu opinion on WWII , Zhu stated that American dropped the atomic bomb to make themselves feel like victors. When Mark asked how do you know, Zhu said because that’s what our newspapers say. This shows that the Chinese that were portrayed in Iron and Silk allow their newspaper form their own opinions. In conclusion they’re many differences in the eastern and western culture , I simply just pointed out a few. - Khalil Wood
While reading Iron and Silk, I realized the difference between the teacher-student relationship in the eastern world and western world. In the Western world, the teacher-student relationship is strictly only for school. While in the Eastern world, the student-teacher relationship exceeds just in the classroom. It is normal for the students to just show up randomly at their teacher’s house, as Mark experienced. While in the Eastern world, most of your teachers you have, you will never know where they live. If a student rang the teacher’s doorbell early in the morning, the student would be seen as crazy and get told to leave. While in eastern culture, the teacher is to be woken up and then will proceed to help the student no matter when or where. The eastern culture has their teachers at their disposal; they can learn and talk to them whenever they feel they need them. Western cultures have different boundaries and students aren’t as comfortable with teachers as they are in Eastern cultures. Since Eastern cultures are based more on the community then of the individual like it is in the Western culture where it’s all about individualism. That’s why the student-teacher relationship in the East is much more tightly knit then the student-teacher relationship in the West.-CPortelli
In Iron and Silk by Mark Salzman, it is very obvious Mark is interested in Chinese culture. Since he was a child, Mark was very interested in Chinese culture. His parents enrolled him in a martial arts school when he was young, and he grew up learning about Chinese culture. As he got older he learned Mandarin and Cantonese, then went on to Yale to major in Chinese literature. After graduating Yale, he went to China as an English teacher. But Mark was surprised at the drastic differences there were between Chinese and American customs. In China the elders are respected for their wisdom, and the youth will go to them for help with problems they are having or general advice. In the United States children are more ignorant and try to reject interference from their parents because they feel they know everything and don't need help. Marks teacher Wei was very surprised to learn he didn't consult an elder before planning a trip. Also teacher Wei didn't understand an American students attempt at a joke, taking it as a sign of disrespect. These are just a few examples of the differences between Chinese and American customs. -JGiannone
Not to be rude but this feels more like a summary then it is a comparison. Regardless, I disagree on simply saying that children are more ignorant in America. I feel that the economic conditions in China force the youth to respect the elders, I feel as though if there was a similar government in China unlike the Communist government the youth would be less likely to respect the elders. There's also the fact that people in these countries have a different work ethic then people in the United States. This work ethic does go into somewhat of an effect of why Teacher Wei doesn't understand of an American's attempt at a joke as well. It is true that elders are more respected which does explain why Teach Wei was also surprised about consulting an elder. Finally you actually only talked about one difference, which was explaining how elders are looked up to in both the United States and China. -GAndrews
Upon reading Mark SaSalzman's Iron and Silk there is an instant distinction between the way foreigners are viewed from western culture and eastern culture. The scene on the train is a prime example of how westerners are immediately stereotyped on Chinese ground. When simply trying to order breakfast he is promptly asked if he would prefer a "western" style breakfast. This threw up a major red flag for me because here in America no one is stereotyped by a waiter of what kind of breakfast they would like by the way they look, talk, or present themselves. Little incidents like this is a constant reminder that Mark is no longer going to be treated as an equal while in China. The Chinese see Americans as easy targets when it comes to sales; portraying us as wasteful gluttonous spenders on everyday commodities. When Mark is purchasing tickets for the train ride he is tricked into buying very expensive seats with no apparent benefit for spending the extra money. From what i see in America today foreigners arent taken advantage of the way foreigners in China are. In America everyone is seen as equals no matter what your backround is and it is ingrained in our minds that prejudices are wrong. -ARainero
I agree that it seems like the foreigners are heavily stereotyped in China. And the parts of stereotyping that occur on the train are very prone to it. I don't agree that Mark is treat as unequal however. Yes the train scene does make it ideal that it could occur, but when he gets to the college, he's treated with higher respect then ever the common folk. Later the call him a professor just because he's from America. He's stereotyped as a well educated American that is very wealthy. These parts not only treat him as equal but they arguably stereotype him to his advantage, it gives him respect. The stereotyping on the train of where Mark is tricked into buying expensive seats though does show how Chinese view Americans gluttonous spenders, but I don't really understand how in America everyone is treated with as equal as well. There are still immigration issues going on as seen in the news. I feel that prejudice and stereotyping is strong no matter where you go, No matter which country you go to there's always in issue of this type. -GAndrews
I agree and I definitely see what you are saying about the way the Chinese treat American tourists as opposed to the way Americans treat Chinese tourists. I believe that Americans do not have prejudices against immigrants or tourists because America was founded by immigrants and welcomes all into their country. I also feel that here in America tourists and immigrants aren’t being taken advantage of because America welcomes them with open arms. Upon arriving in America, immigrants receive benefits like public assistance for medical expenses, food stamps and housing assistance. In America the mixed cultures and differences are appreciated through celebrations such as Chinese New Year, Puerto Rican Day Parade and Columbus Day. Other cultures and religions are also acknowledged and accepted by all Americans as they along with their fellow immigrant citizens. Everyone in America is truly seen as equals no matter what ethnic background or religious belief.
Upon reading pages 74-75 you will discover that the Chinese do not believe in kissing. Mark had explained that in his time there, he had never seen anyone kiss. Nobody in the streets, in movies, no one at all. During dinner MArk and the other doctors had discussed the lips of actor NAttassia Kinki. Mark had thought she was beautiful and had very full lips, the other doctors expressed the lips were "too big" and "too full". Mark explained how lips in the west were preferred to be full and big because it was good and attractive. The doctors argued "good for what?". As a native of the WEST SIDE *throws up W with both hands*, I believe that kissing in private within your house is normal, kissing outside of the house in public, could be uncomfortable. I have felt this way since I saw a gay couple kissing on a corner. But the fact that in China, kissing is taboo all over the place isn't right. I do not believe that social norms and abnorms should affect personal things such as kissing.
One of the things about Chinese culture in Salzman's book that I was unaware of is how the idea of being hospitable is more important than having privacy. This is first seen on page 35 during Mark's conversation with Dr. Li. After they no longer needed to meet for morning instruction Dr. Li tells him that if he ever has any questions to come to his house and just walk in. He says even if he is sleeping he can wake him up. On pg 59 one of Marks doctor students comes walking into his house white he is asleep, and like Dr. Li told Mark to do this student decides to wake up Mark. And not only does he just expect Mark to answer some questions or help him with something in the house but he expects Mark to get up and leave so he can take Mark somewhere. Not wanting to go, Mark tries every excuse he can think of , he tells him that he has something to do, that he is expecting a visitor, and that he does not feel well. None of these things mattered, all the student said was "Follow me" as he pulled Mark out the door. As a Westerner this seems like an extremely rude thing to do, walking into someone home uninvited and forcing them to come somewhere with you. And to Mark this was an annoyance, but if you look at it from the a easterner's point of view there is nothing wrong with doing this because the student would not have minded if Mark walking into his house if he needed something from him. As an outsider looking in I see where they are coming from with this idea of hospitality coming before everything but personally I like having privacy and would not expect someone to just walk into my house no matter how well I knew them.
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DeleteI agree with you, Greg. I too was surprised by the lack of privacy. I had no idea that the Chinese valued hospitality so much that they disregarded personal boundaries. I couldn’t imagine having someone I hardly knew wake me up in the middle of the night so I could answer their questions or follow them out of my house. To westerners, this seems absolutely ridiculous, but to them, it is a completely normal thing to do. It is interesting to see these cultural differences and how some of them, like this example, would be considered rude to us but are part of being a respectable person in China.
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DeleteGreg I agree with what you're saying. I was shocked to read how the Chinese were more concerned about hospitality than their own privacy. If someone came into my house and woke me up in the middle of the night, I would call the cops before offering him tea. Also it is interesting how it they're idea of hospitality seems ludicrous to us, yet is absolutely natural to them. In China it would be weird if they didn't invite you into their house, even if you are a total stranger. If it was me I would avoid a foreigner, yet in China they open them with open arms.
DeleteThis is so bizarre! I agree because when I was first read the part when Mark first meets Teacher Wei, I was so shocked how two people can just walk into someone’s house who they’ve known for such a short period of time. If I was just getting out of the shower and I walked in to my room and there was just two people sitting there while I was basically naked in a towel, there is no possible way I would be able to stay calm. It’s a bit shocking how much emphasis China places on hospitality. I wouldn’t think that this would be acceptable any place in the world. Mark must have how a tough time keeping what he was really thinking inside of him cause I know I wouldn’t be able to.
Deleteme too! I thought that this was so weird. I also found it bizarre that all these Chinese men were coming up to him and marveling at him because he was a foreigner. I think the funniest part of the book was when he was stating at the side of the river and the Chinese fisherman's jaw dropped as soon as he saw Mark. It was also interesting to see the children marveling at Mark because it shows that not only are the adults respectful of the foreigners, but the respect from the adults has been taught to the children.
DeleteI completely agree and I just find it crazy how different the West and East can be in some things. In the west, if the student was to come into their teacher's home and wake them up they can be in trouble and possibly be arrested. Meanwhile, in the eastern world , this is just a normal occurrence and nothing is out of the ordinary if a student does this to a teacher in the east. -CPor
DeleteI agree with you, Greg. The idea of hospitality coming before privacy, or anything else for that matter, is truly very different then from what we are used to. I'm not sure how I'd react if someone were to wake me up in the middle of the night just because they have a question about something. Nevertheless, I do see where they are coming from with this idea. I guess it's just another one of the many differences that there are between Eastern and Western culture.
DeleteI have to agree with Greg completely on this one. It is kinda weird To see how different western culture is to eastern culture. The tiniest things can be taken completely different in the east than in the west. Western cultures are way less struck when it comes to certain things.like what Chris said about waking their teachers and how it can be punishable with possible arrest this is bizarre and completely different from eastern culture. This shows how simple little things can be taken completely different in certain cultures and how cultures are far different from our own in the west.
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I also agree. I found it so weird that people just walk in others houses. I could never be like Dr. Li and I don't think many people of the Western Hemisphere would do the same as Dr. Li. I know if I have just met a guy that I wouldn't invite him into my house and around my family.
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The world is a very large and diverse place. Many things are different from hemisphere to hemisphere that make each unique and distinct. For example, from the Eastern to the Western hemisphere, we have different cultures that make us have varying beliefs on topics such as respect. In Mark Salzman's autobiography Iron and Silk, we see that in regards to respect, it can be greatly varied from East to West. We see that there is a certain level of respect for higher-level individuals such as teachers. Several points in Salzman's story, we see that there is a much more personal and respectful level, mainly between teachers and students, in the East than the West. Though we do respect teachers and other individuals with authority, Western society doesn't have such personal relationships and sometimes thinks such relationships are bizarre, to say the least. On page 27 of the book, Mark tells us that while meeting his teacher, Teacher Wei, that he was half-naked and wet from showering just a short time before their arrival. The two older women, Teacher Wu and Teacher Wei, both entered his home without any warning. In Eastern society, it's an acceptable thing to just enter the house of any individual that is under your tutelage. However, if something like this happened in Western society, there would police outside the house and it would be on the news or something to that extent. Now to talk about the closeness of these relationships is relative to depending on the society. Western society, you would be very professional, not trying to give off any type of impression of anything that would personal, while in the East it's customary to ask for personal tasks and favors from students or colleagues. These differences are because of respect that we have as well as the trust for others as a whole. The West is much less trusting and forgiving than the East, and that plays into the respect that we, as a whole, have for one another. The main difference is not only the level of respect, but the level of trust also plays a major role, and that's why Eastern society is different from Western society on this view.
ReplyDeleteJohn, I 100% agree with you that the teacher and student relationships in the East are much more personal and intimate than in the West. In the East, students have the utmost respect for their teachers. Also, it is believed that if a student disobeys their teacher it is similar to disobeying their parents. In the West, many students treat their teachers with disrespect and feel like they are a wall or barrier that is impeding their journey to adulthood. The example that you used from Iron and Silk is a perfect. In the West, if a teacher intruded a student's house without permission, they would be immediately thrown in jail and would be the top story on the news. In the East, teachers are seen like family or parents that guide you to become a successful and prosperous human being.
DeleteWithout a doubt! This relationship between student and teacher first struck me after i read the part where Mark is given the letter from the students advising him as to what he can do better during his lessons. This seems like it would happen in Eastern culture. Given the same situation in the West, the students couldn't care less about the teacher or the lesson. Its just so strange how different two cultures could view the same topic. I commend the East for how dedicated they are towards there teachers and their learning.
DeleteI admire the determination of how the eastern culture students always want to improve themselves in their studies and activities. However, in the west students will just walk through the motions in any activity and even classes just seeking for the passing grade. The east even goes as far as informing the teachers on ways to improve their teaching thats amazing.
DeleteI couldn't agree with you more, John. There is definitely more trust and respect in the Eastern culture, as well as a closer relationship between teachers and student. Perhaps this is for the better. As you said, in the West student-teacher relationships are very professional and impersonal and this is definitely another huge difference between Eastern and Western culture.
DeleteThe eastern value of exchanging gifts is something I found particularly fascinating. In one scene, Old Ding offers a rowboat to Salzman in exchange for a simple charcoal drawing. Salzman is overwhelmed by this, not wanting to take something of such value from a poor family. However, thanks to his thorough knowledge of Chinese culture, he is able to convince them not to by “asking for something greater”. He instead asks for a piece of art, or in this case to hear a village song. One scene that I found particularly frustrating was when Salzman acquires a Michaelangelo book imported from America, but is unable to gift it to Lin. Lin is a devoted lover of Michaelangelo’s works, going as far as calling him his “teacher”. However, the only way for Salzman to deliver the book to Lin is through Zheng. Salzman had quit his lessons with Zheng due to the attention that Zheng was giving him over the other students. This goes against the Chinese value of “equality”, and made Salzman feel guilty once other students stopped arriving. By quitting, however, he made things even worse as quitting is considered a great insult to the teacher. Because of this, he is no longer able to deliver the book to Lin. In fact, Little Guo tells Salzman that Lin would not even accept the book given the chance due to him “insulting” Zheng. Lin previously told Salzman a saying illustrating such a scenario: “A thing can seem easy one day and impossible the next.”
ReplyDeleteChris, I agree with you that in the Eastern culture rarely would they accept a gift without repaying the favor. This is seen many times such as your examples but also when Dr. Lin tells Mark the story of him helping a boy with a fever and the father couldn't repay him at the time. Then that man comes much later with eggs and leaves it for him and walks away with shame. Also when the acquaintce of Old Ding offers the rowboat for the painting, it is seen that monetary or equal value is different to them than to us. They view the equality of gifts different than from the West. They feel that when given a painting is so valuable that is why he offers the rowboat in return. Mark has to eventually learn to manipulate that unwritten rule in order to not have to make them repay him in an unequal way.
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Mark Salzman’s Iron and Silk shows the close relationship between teacher and student in Eastern culture. Salzman’s Teacher Wei, taught many lessons to her devout student, as seen on page 36, as she takes on the responsibility of not only Salzman’s academic progress, but as well as his development as a person. This shows that the relationship between teacher and student in Eastern culture goes beyond the boundaries of what many Western teachers relationships are with their students, which is also shown on page 36 as Teacher Wei offers advice to Salzman concerning his family and friends, what his diet should consist of, the clothing that he should wear, his studies as well as his exercising habits, and the attitude that he should have towards life and the challenges that he may struggle with. This shows the amount of care and concern from Teacher Wei that she has for Salzman, which makes for a close caring relationship between teacher and student. She is even shocked and appalled at the idea of how in Western Culture, children becoming adults must learn to make decisions for themselves. This shows how one must learn to be self-reliant on one’s own abilities to take care of their work and other responsibilities in Western Culture, while in Eastern Culture in is encouraged from an early age and even as an adult to consult with others to seek their advice as well as their help if it is needed. Teacher Wei shows that the bond between teacher and student is strong, as having someone to consult with on a personal level as well as seeking out help when you most need it is seen more in Eastern Culture then in Western Culture.
ReplyDeleteI agree with what Adem said because as I read, I also saw a strong teacher to student relationship forming. Each person Mark encountered, they showed him respect and gratitude for his dedication. When Mark taught the medical students, they referred to him as professor rather than teacher out of respect because he was an educated white man willing to teach them English. These relationships Mark formed stayed strong until the end of his stay in China. Therefore, the bonds Mark made with his teachers and colleagues and even when he was the student to his teachers, there was definitely a strong connection portrayed. Based on what Adem said about the Western and Eastern cultures, I also see a difference between them based upon respect and gratification towards foreigners. And just to answer the question Adem asked me in my blog earlier, I stand by my word and continue to say that the woman showed discrimination towards Mark and this can be the way some other countries treat foreigners. Based on the example I provided previously, I feel discrimination can take place anywhere throughout the world.
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I also agree with Adem's statement, the bond between teacher and student is shown to be a very strong within the book. Salzburg shows in his book the strong respect that students have for their teachers. This is put on display through the reverence Mark is shown by the medical students, shown when they would always refer to him as professor. Yet he also showed the care that teacher's have for their students, as Adem stated. Shown through how Teacher Wei would not only advise Mark in his teaching skills, but also advise him in his personal life. It portrays the close bond that teachers and students in Eastern culture have that you just don't see in Western culture. In Western society, you see that are almost afraid to get too close to their students. They forget that teaching should sometimes go beyond books, as they are not only preparing their students for the next level of education, they are preparing them for the real world. In the end, I agree with Adem's comments and believe that Salzburg does a very good job of showing the close bond that teacher and student have in Eastern culture.
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I disagree Adem. I have strong relationships with most of my teachers. I know especially with my Computer teacher this year. I can tell him anything and everything and he will be the first to help. Having a strong relationship with a teacher is key to keeping a interest in the subject. I've noticed when you like and relate to the teacher you care more about their work and you will try harder because you like the person.
DeleteI agree completely Adem. Mark Salzman shows us how close a relationship between a student and teacher in China really is and also shows us how much the Chinese people view such a relationship. One student-teacher relationship that stuck out ot me when I was reading however, is the one between Mark and Teacher Zheng. The relationship started out like usual for mark with an acquaintance introducing Zheng to Mark and they immediately set off to train and Zheng accepts Mark as a student. What stuck out ot me though wasnt the actual training however, it was how it ended. You see, when Mark decided to end the training with Zheng, Zheng took it as a personal offence. So great this offence was, that when Mark tried to have a gift passed on through Zhang by having the acquaintance give the gift to Zheng, the acquaintance refused. He said that in Chinese culture it is a great evil to break off a student-teacher relationship and that because he did, Zheng no longer wanted to have anything to do with him. I think this adequatly shows how the Chinese view student-teacher reltionships
DeleteOver hundreds of years the eastern hemisphere still sticks to family traditions very strongly compared to the western hemisphere. Particularly, China, has changed their tradition very little compared to American tradition and so still emphasizes many expectations on their children from a very young age. Through Mark Salzman’s first hand experience, there is a great deal of responsibility put on children to be successful, especially if they have a disadvantage. When Mark agreed to help Mr. Gong’s 12 year old son learn how to paint, he also found out that because of the boy’s near sightedness he could not go to college. As a result, the father wanted him to learn a trade soon so the boy would do well in life. It’s almost absurd, from a Westerners point of view, that because you lack certain genetic traits you instantly fail from getting into college and then must own up to the responsibility of perfecting a trade, all at such a young age. Modern American culture, would not be this bias and force such a task upon an innocent kid who doesn’t have the power to change his physical qualities. Rather they would help him get to college and over come this obstacle. Likewise, while Mark begins the lesson with the boy, the family hovers around him to see his first brush stroke hit the paper. The boy nervously goes for his first attempt but it only ends in a broking paint brush. His family “gasped and scolded him,” saying “Look what you did, you broke it!” and as the lesson goes on the further the criticism gets more aggressive(Salzman.47). The family even says “ Why are you making trembly crooked lines? Concentrate, don’t just play- Uncle Mark’s time is very precious, don’t waste it,” all as the boy stays perfectly silent and without resentment. The amount of respect and discipline that is required by a young Chinese child is outrageous. Even though the pressure and insults are overwhelming, the boy still sits there and does not peep a word. The average American 12 year old would still be playing video games and sports rather then going through intense practices for a trade he will have to do the rest of his life. American tradition emphasis responsibility, discipline, and skills more near the ages between 16 and 22 simply for the fact that these ages are reasonable for this weight. The different cultures between the Western and Eastern hemisphere, the United States and China, is remarkable. The expectations that the Chinese hold their young ones to is a whole another world compared to what the young ones of America are held to.
ReplyDeleteOne aspect that I found to be both very interesting and hopeful is the treatment of foreigners in China. For some time I have loved the idea of travelling, but I was unsure on whether or not I would be well received. Anytime I see good experience of another in their travels, I am given hope that the people of that country would be very kind. Throughout Salzman's stay in China, there are many examples of kindness showed to him by natives of the country. One instance that stood out most to me on pg 70 is when he met the man on the fishing boat. Not only did the man show generosity towards Mark, but he also showed genuine surprise and interest. The man asked him to accompany him on his boat and took him to visit his family. His family had similar reactions upon seeing Mark. They then fed him and took him back to where they had picked him up. For one thing the man never had to offer Mark anything at all. Also, if something like that would have happened in the West, or at least in certain parts of the United States, it would have most likely been met with suspicion. This shows the best of people in their treatment of foreigners. However, on pg 5, a People's Liberation Army man was overly critical of Salzman. He first commented on the type of food Mark ate and then the amount. This shows how some may look for chances to find differences in people from other countries. Although this was one bad experience among others, the majority of people he encountered were nice to him. This event shows that there are people who won't treat you well everywhere in the world. In China, Mark met a variety of people, some of which were kind while others were less so. Overall, Mark had fairly good experiences where people showed kindness, sometimes unexpectedly. The world has changed a lot since this work was written almost thirty years ago. Despite this, his experiences give me hope that I will be treated well in other countries should I decide to go.
ReplyDeleteI agree with what Danny is saying. Throught Mark's biography a lot of people he encountered showed him respect even his students who didn't call him teacher, they called him professor Mark. Even Hai Bin who takes him on to teach him calligraphy. - A Sarra
DeleteI agree with the point you are making Danny. It's always interesting to see the experiences of others, whether they are good or bad, to be able to fully understand a culture or how well you would be received by that culture, such as the one in 1980's China. However, at some points he wasn't as well received such as during the beginning before he reached Hunan, when the security was difficult with him. It generally depends on who you encounter and interact with.
DeleteI agree with what you're saying Danny. As someone who also enjoys traveling, how I as a foreigner would be treated is always something that I consider. So reading Iron and Silk and seeing that in the east there are people who treat foreigners with respect was great. One of the hardest parts of going to another country is always the cultural barrier between you and the natives, so seeing that there are some people who are willing to treat foreigners kindly and with respect is great.
DeleteYou make a very good point, Danielle. I too found the Chinese fisherman an oddity in Mark's travels. I find that the hospitality that Mark explains in his book is comforting to the Chinese people. perhaps because they live in such poor conditions and are controlled by the government is one of the reasons why they are so hospitable. Do you believe so? Also, in one of my last blog posts I brought up the comparison of Manhattan and China and how back then they were different. People in Manhattan some times tend to be isolated from each other. In Manhattan people just walk by each other without acknowledging one another. However, it seems that in China they are very hospitable, but their city is kind of gross. I wonder if the modernization of China has lead the people to become more selfish. Would you agree with this? Do you have any insight?
DeleteI agree Danny. In Chinese culture respect, loyalty, and hospitality is a must. It definitely is shown strongly throughout Marks experiences in China. The people in China work and are proud with what they have, they remain humble and work to improve themselves and each other, always acknowledging their peers. Where as here people can care less about each other. Passing by each other bumping shoulders and giving dirty looks. Everyone is out for themselves and are looking just to steal any opportunity from you.
DeleteBook 1 in Iron and Silk shows not only Chinese culture that stereotypes foreigners but also shows a China under a Communist regime as well. There were multiple times throughout the first book specifically the first few pages where Mark Salzman is having a hard time trying to get on the train as the officials make up regulations to keep Salzman and his colleagues off the train. There are other types of stereotyping such as when Salzman asked if he wants a Western style breakfast while he was on the train, and some people automatically assume that Salzman is a professor from America when he really isn't, this is typical stereotyping that every American and wealthy and well-educated. The integration of communism into Chinese culture is also very present in the radios or loudspeakers with constant blathering of propaganda saying things like "Without the Communist Party, there would be no new China." Another example of communism is when Mark is greeted by Comrade Hu who gives Salzman entertainment which involves African Americans singing a Chinese song "Socialism is Good" which shows that Communism is very omnipresent in the everyday lives of individuals in China. Even though America and China have opened up friendly relations at this point in time (history), the latter's culture is completely different from the former's. This is mostly due to the presence of Commmunism which is completely against the what the free enterprise system that The United States works towards. The Communism system puts a whole entire coat of paint on the Eastern culture and that's mostly do to the government's control on nearly everything, not only enterprises but also things such as the education system, a god example of the control on the education system is when Salzman's class debates or discusses how World War II was ended because some students assumed that Japan surrendered to completely different threat in China and some assumed that the United States dropped the atomic bomb on Japan so that they could claim the victory. This is also an example of how the government possibly controls what is printed and how it controls freedom of speech in China. All of these examples of stereotyping and the presence of Communism shows a very big difference in Western and Eastern culture.
ReplyDeleteAs i spoke of the treatment of foreigners, i see parallels in your post. Not everyone treats Mark the way he should be treated. We see how strict and rigid the government and its officials are at this time. They abuse Mark and treat him very unfairly. The amount of censorship imposed on the people is extensive as well. They are fed certain information that they have no choice but to believe as true. I agree that under the Communist regime the people do not get as much freedom as they used to have. Despite this it is hard to see at times because they seem to live pretty normal lives without the interference of the officials. It is beneficial to see the viewpoint of an American and to have their horizons widened to different viewpoints of the world. They can be, in some cases, more widely accepted viewpoints. Overall, censorship is wrong to an extent and the people should be given a certain degree more of freedom.
Delete-DD'Amico
It’s odd how ones perception of a country can change so much after reading parts of such a small book. When I think of China, the first thought that comes to mind is how large the population is. With such a large amount of people living in one place, you wouldn’t expect the area to be the cleanest, but I certainly didn’t expect this place to be as Salzman described it. I was baffled to see how little emphasis this country places on hygiene. “Dishwater and refuse were thrown casually out of windows, rats the size of squirrels could be flattened out all over the roads, spittle and mucus lay everywhere, and the dust and ash from coal-burning stoves, heaters and factories mixed with dirt and rain to stain the entire city an unpleasant greyish-brown” (Salzman 10). This doesn’t sound like any place I would want to live. I imagine this is the sort of description given my foreigners who stereo-type New York. I just can’t believe the way these people take care of their country. Even going as far as to urinating in the streets. Just disgusting! It’s striking to see this type of behavior even in places you would expect to be clean, like the Hunan Theatre. The crowd spat so loudly throughout the performance that the performer actually stopped and walked off stage (13). Not only is this repulsive but it is exceptionally rude. It’s understandable, since these people are living under communist rule, that there wouldn’t be many laws or restrictions promoting cleanliness, but still. In Western culture we place certain regulations on the way the citizens treat the land. All over Staten Island we have signs which state that littering is against the law and you can be fined, or the signs that restrict the illegal dumping of waste. I’m pretty sure urinating in public would be considered a crime in our culture. It’s so weird to see how different two places can really be and how different two places can value the same idea. I just believe hygiene should be a top priority for any country, but then again that is just one man’s opinion.
ReplyDeleteYes Mr.Ross definitely, and also another thing you notice, even places where there aren't a lot of people, because when Mark goes to the school its still rather dirty. When he's in the classroom remember how the rat ran through it and when he approached the principle guy, he says don't let people know because they can't have the reputation of being dirty, so in general it seems the place all over is rather dirty.
DeleteI totally agree with you Kevin. Reading about the disgusting streets of China really repulsed me too! When I think of China I stereotype it as a country that is well kept, maintaining excellent order and balance. I also agree with what you said about public urination which is definitely a crime as I know someone who got arrested for such an offense. America and China are two completely different countries with the way they value their customs and beliefs. Although we in America find it strange and rather disgusting to hear about rats and garbage everywhere, it is a normal everyday occurrence for those living in China. Hygiene is without a doubt an important priority for any country and should probably be enforced a little more strictly in China, but then again America isn’t exactly the cleanest country.
DeleteIn Iron and Silk one thing that struck me was the difference in the way the people in China lived. In China, they lived without basic things that we in America have gotten used to. This struck me because it made me realize how we in America have begun to take things for granted. The everyday things we use like water, electricity, and plumbing are all things people in China didn’t have. For example, there was one point in the book where Mark Salzman is in his room and the electricity turns off. Curious about why he asks Old Sheep what happened. She casually answers that the power is off, and that it happens every couple of days (Salzman 12). The fact that Old Sheep was so okay with it, while Mark was confused, shows the difference. Something as basic as electricity was always there, so he never thought it would be a concern. Old Sheep, conversely, was used to power going on and off. This scene really showcased to me the difference in our societies. Where we in America, believe something like electricity to be a common commodity, people in China value it more and learned to live without it. It isn’t just electricity that we take for granted. In this China, there is very poor hygiene. Hygiene is something that we don’t even think about. We always shower, we have bathrooms, and the streets are always clean. However, in China there was waste in the streets, germs and mucus everywhere, and the life there was generally dirty (10). In America we expect sanitation to take our garbage, we expect our plumbing to work, and we expect the people around us and our streets to be clean. If we in America lost any of those things we wouldn’t know what to do. The people in America have gotten too used to a certain way of life, without realizing that in other parts of the world, there are those who have none of these commodities.
ReplyDeleteSal your aspects of people in America and in China are views that I can relate to. The example of people in America taking electricity for granted is something that is correct because what would we do if there is none, even if there is no electricity for days. The new generation of Americans would panic and be in hysteria without their technology because it is something that uses electricity when needed. I respect those people in China who undergo no electricity because it goes to show that they can survive. Your view on hygiene is also very accurate because it is another thing that Americans rarely even worry about. With all these resources in our homes such as bathrooms and showers, being dirty is not a problem. The overall view that you portray is agreeable because in America many people have not realized other conditions in China and also other countries. We have been used to many of the things here, and never realize that other people are suffering from a lack of these important things such as resources. Eventually in America we must learn how to survive and not rely on these because one day these resources and nearby goods will not be available.
Delete- Steven Pabua
I agree with your statement Sal. The living condition differences between China and America are huge. America has become used to its luxurious commodities and forget about how many other people live. I was very shocked that Old sheep was used to the power going out and didn't complain about it. Electricity to them was a luxury. Meanwhile in America it is something we expect to never go out and when it does we freak out about it. Your statement on the difference in hygiene is agreeable as well. The Chinese hygiene is very poor and would disgust any american. But the fact that the Chinese are used to those poor hygiene conditions is sad. America definitely have gotten used to these commodities and wouldn't know what to do without them.
DeleteI disagree with your statement Sal. You see in the book Mark clearly demonstrates that while their is a certain lust for a better life in Chinese culture, most people are content with where they are and don't even consider that they're poor or dont have good facilities. What Im trying to say,I guess, is that its not out fault that we were born where we are, we just play the hand we're dealt with. It clearly in the book states that the chinese people dont even think about the situation their in and they dont have hate for the situation theyre in either. For example, the fishermen dont complain that they have to use the river as their toilet and they certaintly dont complain when they use it as a shower. They even insult Mark for his poor hygiene when he refuses to do it. Old Sheep acts like it is completely normal for their city to have blackouts. What im trying to say is that, no Americans should not be faulted for "getting used to a certain way of life"- thats simply not fair. Should we simply discard all these commodities and give it to the Chinese? No, previous generations worked hard to get us those commodities and we should just abandon them, and no it is not evil to simply use the facilities offered and given to you at birth. And the sweeping generalization that all Americans have these commodities too irks me a little. It is a known fact that there are many Americans who do not have any of these basic services and yet they manage to live on a day to day basis. And Im not saying that we shouldnt help people with basic services-like china- if we have it and they dont. On the contrary, I believe it is out duty to help thos ein such need. I just believe that we shouldnt be ashamed to use-and rely- on the services we have had and the services we use.
DeleteI agree with you Sal, while America got so used to material things in life and all types of it. Such as fame , power and money have America living in constant competition with each other. America has become very individualistic and materialistic. While China and the East has a huge emphasis on the community and nature. -CPor
DeleteA part I found very interesting about this book was the discussion about the atomic bomb dropped on Japan (around page 51). During this conversation between Salzman and his students it brings up the censorship and the falsehood of the event in the Chinese common people’s eyes. The Chinese were lead to believe that the Japanese surrendered before this point to the Chinese and the only reason the USA dropped the bomb was to say they were the victor. They are totally oblivious to this and believe they are right and Salzman was wrong. This makes me start to think what if the censorship in our country is way more than we think? If people could be controlled this easily without any knowledge of being controlled than how would we know this doesn’t happen to us? This may sound like a huge conspiracy theory but I am just speculating on something that could be possible (but isn’t likely). Just look at “Operation Paperclip”, after WW2 German SS members were spared didn’t have to go to trial (secretly) if they agreed to come work for the US government. We were in turn harboring some war prisoners that no one knew about just to benefit ourselves with technology and weapons. The governments mislead us and didn’t reveal this to recently. How much of our history is untrue, that the government will reveal when they deem this is safe? Back to the scene from the book that when reading we find ridiculous and can’t imagine people believing; our government has lied to us and still is. Hopefully not on the scale that China is censored but it is definitely happening.
ReplyDeletePlease don’t respond with unsupported conspiracy theories, or anything regarding the illuminati.
-KWiesner
This is a part I found to be very interesting as well. It was odd how they think so differently about an event that we have accepted as the truth without question. An event as historic as this one that left as big an impact as it did should only be viewed in one way in all the history books, at least generally. It is strange how the Chinese hold such a different perspective on what we accept as what really happened and we accept the reason behind it. Given what the government of China has become, it seems more likely that their government fed them this information. Although one must wonder what the truth really is in times like this. However, it could just be a different point of view.
Delete-DD'amico
It's amazing how terrible China was and is now has the worlds biggest economy and is a world power and how much we got worse.
ReplyDeletehttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VMqcLUqYqrs
Eastern and Western standpoints regarding materialistic possessions are different and such is evident in Mark Salzman’s Iron and Silk. The acquisition of materialistic goods is connected with the act of helping one another in eastern and western society. The famous question in the west has always been “What’s in it for me?” The west has become so focused on the individual and one’s materialistic possession that we have almost forgotten what it is like to help others. In Salzman’s experience in China, his teacher of Wushu, Dr, Li would travel for 45 minutes every morning to teach Mark. Dr, Li is so willing to help Mark and is so happy to help him that he even tells him that if he needs any more help or guidance to come visit him. Dr Li says that no matter what he is doing, if Mark comes to his house he will help him, “But what if you are busy? “It doesn’t matter! If you come, I won’t be busy anymore!” “But what if you are asleep?” “Then wake me up!””. Most western teachers would not be happy if you interrupted their work or woke them from sleeping, in fact that is unheard of! If any student in the west were to wake up a teacher from their sleep to help them, not only would they not receive the help they are looking for, they would be punished. The eastern society has so much more emphasis on helping each other and I believe that the west has much to learn from the east about student teacher relationships.
ReplyDelete-TZirngibl
The interesting thing is, like you said, how materialistic western society for the most part has become. Back when Salzman wrote Iron and Silk, western culture was able to, much like eastern society, help others without needing anything in return. Now, just 30 years later, most people in western culture wouldn't raise a hand to help anyone unless it benefitted them in some way. While the case for China may not be so different, they still have deep roots to their past, which gives them an obligation and a basis for mutual respect and wanting to help your fellow man just for the sake of it, not for some type of material gratification.
DeleteI agree with you, Tim. I also think that the west can learn a lot from the student teacher relationships in the East. In the East the reason people teach is to help others, they teach because they want to. For example Dr. Li teacher Mark because he sees that Mark wants to learn, he receives nothing but the satisfaction of helping someone learn. Students learn only because they want to learn not because they are forced to. Because of this there is a higher level of respect between student and teacher. Over here in the west school has become more of a chore then anything else, students are forced to go to school and they do not care about their education. Teachers notice this lack of care and as a response care less about the education of their student and care more about their pay.
Deleteforgot to add the Citation after the quote from Iron and Silk, it is on the top of page 35.
ReplyDelete-TZirngibl
Throughout Salzman's Iron and Silk, the idea of hospitality is duly noted in several scenes of this novel. Although many characters depicted in the novel show great appreciation and respect towards Mark, one character shows no interest in him at all. This is seen during Mark's experience at the coffee shop. Unlike like most of the people Mark encounters, the woman who works in the shop does not show any satisfaction towards him. Being a foreigner, Mark is respected by most people, but this woman gives Mark a difficult time even for a cup of coffee. As seen on page 188, the woman charges Mark an entrance fee. The fee is five dollars which only applies from nine in the morning until later on. Mark arrives to the shop fifteen minutes after seven. Since he is different, the woman takes advantage of the situation and charges Mark the entrance fee anyways. As a result, the lady causes an explosive scene with him because he is eccentric in her eyes. Later on, she yells at him saying he cannot leave the area with store property. Even then she finds a way to cause a dispute with him. Furthermore when Mark decides to buy coffee but in a larger container, the lady charges Mark five times the price than what a single cup of coffee costs. At this point, it is obvious that there is discrimination towards foreigners. Later on in that same scene as seen on page 189, the African American medical student, Sudan, states that Chinese people feel that they are superior to blacks and other races. After reading that, I realized that not all Chinese people feel the same way about foreigners. It is ironic because Mark felt important and greatly applauded by his hosts for being different and after seeing this incident with the coffee shop, my opinion and viewpoints changed. I chose this scene over others because it shows discrimination and rudeness towards a foreigner, something that is never told throughout Mark’s experiences in China up until that point.
ReplyDelete- A Carlo
I agree with you Carlo as the woman in the coffee shop was incredibly rude towards Mark Salzman, as all he really was a cup of coffee to enjoy, and all she offers him is an expensive cup of coffee and a bad attitude. It is important to note Carlo that this is not the first time that a person in China had been rude towards Salzman, as he was on the train eating his breakfast and minding his own business, the soldier aboard the train, known in the story as the Peoples Liberation Army man, made a comment about the food he was having, which was a Western style breakfast, about how he could be eating that kind of food at 7:00 in the morning. The Although he made a remark towards who he felt was a foreigner who was in this soldiers homeland, it shows how people who serve in Chinas communist regime have no care or desire to know or even respect a foreigner from another country. This shows the ignorance that China has of foreigners, as both the woman in the coffee shop and the PLA man have towards Salzman. Is this reaction from them out of discrimination that many other countries may show to a foreigner who they are unaccustomed to, or is this a part of the Communist regime in China brainwashing their people about foreigners?
Delete-Aliharevic
I also agree with you Carlo, it is very clear that this woman had no interest whatsoever in showing any hospitality toward Mark. The idea that someone would make someone pay more money for something as simple as a cup of coffee, because they are a foreigner, is absolutely baffling. However it is also not surprising as Mark has had multiple situations where he shown rude behavior before. I'm referring to the scene where he was at the train station and the people were making it extremely difficult for him and his friends to get on the train. Seemingly making up regulations as they went along in order to keep them from making there train, the only logical being that they were foreigners. If something happened in America where this happened to Chinese people, the workers most likely would have been fired. To me, it is an example that their are only a certain group of people that follow the rules of hospitality.
DeleteUpon reading Iron and Silk, I was very intrigued by how many times Mark Salzman was put into an uncomfortable state. As an American living in China, Mark was bound to come across some rough experiences but what I cannot fathom is how Mark reacted and handled these experiences. In the beginning of the book, Mark is nonchalantly having breakfast in a dining car. He is greeted by an attendant and she immediately urged him to order the Western Style breakfast instead of the Chinese style. Even though it costs three times as much Mark orders it. While eating, a man muttered, “Look at the foreigner, how can he eat that at seven in the morning” (Salzman 5). On the fifth page in the book, Mark is already being put in an uncomfortable state; he is being stereotyped as an odd and unusual American. Mark ignores the comment and a few minutes later he orders the Chinese style breakfast. Immediately, the same man states, “How can he eat so much” (Salzman5). Mark is once more being put in an uncomfortable state; he is now being labeled as a gluttonous and greedy American. Astoundingly, Mark doesn’t state a word to the man and pretends he didn’t hear a sound. Being trained in martial arts, Mark could have easily taught the man a wise lesson but he didn’t. As Americans, we are known as fiery people who don’t take damaging comments lightly. I was shocked by how Mark reacted to this man’s remarks. Is Mark a wimp or is he wise?
ReplyDeleteWell Festa in Marks defense, these are people republic soldiers which means they're Chinese army men, and Mark is tired since its 7 A.M, while he just got skimped on his Western meal he paid extra for while he's in a foreign country that isn't too fond of Americans so calling him a wimp for not trying to beat up 2 Chinese soldiers in China after they made a rather harmless remark is rather harsh. Don't forget, in kung fu dojos and such, they teach to be peaceful and not going around beating up the first person to insult you because you can.
DeleteI agree with you, Festa, when you talked about how he was faced with some uncomfortable situations. One being when he bought his bike and everyone stared at him when he paid for it and rode it out of the store. But, I'm also going to have to agree with Mr. Jellyfish in the sense that Mark is taught not to settle conflict with his fists. He is trained in self-defense, not go-and-kick-some-guys-butt-because-he-called-you-a-name. Besides, even if he hit the man, he could have been imprisoned because once you reach a black belt, your fists become lethal weapons. So he isn't a wimp, he is wise and in control of himself for not over-reacting to some harsh words.
DeleteI see both of your points and agree that I may have been a little too harsh. Mark is trained in martial arts and he has practiced for hours to control his inner peace when he is tested in these uncomfortable situations.
DeleteOne thing that caught my attention in Iron and Silk was how generous most of the people Mark met were. One specific situation was when Mark showed Old Ding and his family the charcoal drawing he had drawn. When Mark offers to give the old man the picture the old man was surprised and wouldn't accept it. He claimed he had nothing to give in return but Mark said it was just a picture and wants him to have it for free. But when finally the old man accepts the drawing he starts negotiating with Old Ding on what they would give Mark. They finally come to the conclusion they would give him one of their row boats. Mark told Old Ding this was absolutely ridiculous and he would not take a poor mans boat for a charcoal sketch. Mark realizes they were very serious and wouldn't let him not take a gift. So he asks them to sing him a song instead as repayment. What fascinated me with this whole scene was the amount of generosity and gratitude they showed Mark. Even though they are a poor fisherman's family they were willing to give up one of their only two row boats, even after mark presented it as a gift. I think this speaks tons about their selflessness and generosity. The amount of emphasis the family put on repayment for something as small as a painting was shocking. They place value on sentimental items instead of monetary value.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with you Jake. People in the East just treat people with a different amount of respect, an amount of respect that you will never see from people in the West. Throughout my posts, the word "weird" or "strange" often comes up, and I'm going to use it again. To me, I find it strange that Old Ding, along with all people in Eastern Society, show much gratitude and respect to a person when they present them something. Most people in Western Culture are grateful when they receive something, however, I don't think we would offer someone a rowboat like Old Ding did. Than again, that's just me. Another example of gratitude is seen when Mark presents the watercolors, brushes and charcoals to Mr. Gongs son after he learns that he likes to draw (Salzman 47). However, it seems like Mr. Gongs son doesn't like to draw, but his father still demands him to show respect to what Mark did for him. This example is a little more realistic, and is something you will see in Western Culture, however, your example is perfect when Eastern Culture is discussed.
Delete-VCal
I don't think that generosity is the right word to describe this scenario. In Chinese culture, people are obliged to be good hosts. If they fail to properly serve their host, they will feel greatly dishonored. In the case where Old Ding offered his boat to Salzman, he feels as if he had no choice but to do so. This explains why he had "Fifteen minutes of vigorous discussion, all in dialect" before coming to this conclusion (Salzman 119). This likely originates from the communist theme that everyone must be equal. As such, they needed to give Salzman something that they perceived as equal value. On the topic of being a good host, one scene that sticks out is when Professor Jin invites Salzman over while being severely ill. Despite all that he shows him in this condition, he claims to be a "terrible host" due to not properly greeting him at the door (Salzman 194-195). In addition, Jin's determination to continue calligraphy with arthritis, of all diseases, truly demonstrates the Eastern value of hard work.
DeleteAs we read Mark Salzman’s biography Iron and Silk we learn that there are many cultural differences between the western texts to here in America. We can see examples of this on page seventy four when the westerners says “Miss Kiniski the star of the movie wasn’t beautiful because of the fact her lips were too big.” In the western culture they feel that a woman’s lips should be small and delicate. Mark replies by saying “a woman’s lips should be full because they are good for kissing.” Mark also states that “since he has been there in China he hasn’t seen two people kiss each other, not even in the movies there.” Mark found this hard to believe so when he asks the westerners they begin to say “here in China people don’t kiss here.” Mark tells them that in America we see people kissing in movies or television shows to show love and compassion to each other. Westerners also told Mark that parents in America kiss and hug their children to show them that they truly love them. Parents in China are only found kissing their infants. While here in America parents kiss or hug their children good night. In conclusion this is how we are culturally different than the west. -A Sarra
ReplyDeleteSarra i think you meant to say easterners instead of westerners but yes i totally agree
DeleteThis is a good point that you bring up Anthony. That something as simple as showing affection towards your children can be so drastically different in these two different cultures. How in the west it seems as if parents show more affection towards their kids then parents in eastern cultures.
DeleteThere are many cultural differences between the west and the east, things ranging from home interactions to life at school. But if one were to go to China, for example, the first difference they would see is food and drink. In the very beginning of the book, after Mark is finally on the train after dealing with the whole lack of tickets situation, he goes to the restroom and puts some water on his face and takes a few drinks. When he looks up a sign says "do not drink" and he ends up getting diarrhea for the next few weeks. Now in the US, one can drink from a tap anywhere, in his or her house, at a restroom in a restaurant, and most definitely they would not get ill, even though most people don't usually do that. The food and when food is eaten is even a bigger difference. When Mark sits down, he orders a "western style breakfast" which is a terrible ham sandwich with a glass of milk, this goes to show what easterners think we eat for breakfast because a soldier behind mark says “Look at the foreigner, how can he eat that at seven in the morning” (Salzman 5). Since Mark wasn't full from the sandwich he ends up ordering a eastern style breakfast which is just noodles with an egg on top, and thinking back to the west, most people would not even think of eating that at 7 A.M yet theres another difference. When Mark is given his food, the soldier yet again has input when he says “How can he eat so much” (Salzman5). This goes to show how easterners think we are all gluttons, when we pretty much are. But ultimately, in the first few pages of the book, we get to see how the west and the east are night and day even in the simplest things and then how things get more distant in similarity as the book progresses. - Labeat Lunja USA
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with you.I think they have the right to call us gluttonous and compared to them we truly are.Only recently we were overtaken by Mexico as the fattest country in the world. The stereotype about America being fat is completely true. While I was in Europe sophomore year out of 20 kids about two were chubby(not totally obese), maybe around 240lbs; but all the Europeans seemed to stair at them and right away notice us as American tourists.
DeleteI would have to disagree with you karl. I don't believe that the eastern culture as any authority to demean the westerners in any way. While it is true that Americans are factually the largest humans on earth, that doesn't justify belittlement. Just because differences in culture are portrayed doesn't advocate that one culture is the "wrong" way to live. I believe that every country has differences that will seem odd to others. Instead of mocking the differences of nations, people should accept or ignore how others act because in actuality it doesn't affect their daily lives. Mr. Lunja's post about cultural should help us see the negative hate cultural differences can create and change that in society today.
Delete-TNguyen
As many of my classmates above explained the struggle of being a foreigner and Mark's mistreatment in China, there was one part that really caught my attention. In the chapter called "Hong Kong Foot" on page 40, Mark has started to see the hot and humid weather in Changsha by developing a case of athlete's foot. No one he sought or knew was familiar with the symptoms. Mark had to write to someone in Hong Kong who later on sent medicine, along with candy bars and brownies (Salzman 40). He had to go to the post office after receiving a pick up letter in the mail. This was the part that frustrated me the most and made me feel bad for Mark because the woman helping Mark went to the room to pick up his package that was torn up, and everything inside was out of order. At the same time this woman had an attitude that was uncalled for. She loudly told Mark to "sign and pay" and Mark saw that the bill had a tax that was worth more than contents of the package. Mark was annoyed because it was an "import tax for foreign friends" and Mark was trying to explain that the tax was waived for foreigner living and working in China by the Foreign Affairs Bureau (Salzman 41). If I was in the position of Mark I would have been furious about the whole package situation. I was even surprised that Mark did not react with anger, although he was annoyed, but I give him respect for acting calm at that time. Clearly in that situation, the woman acted disrespectfully to Mark because he was a foreigner. It seems that a citizen of China would have had an easier time receiving a package than Mark. Another thing I found unfair was that Mark was charged unfairly with the tax on foreigners because the tax was way higher than the medicine or candy in the package. How would you feel in this situation? Should Mark have acted more aggressively to the woman or remained silent as he was?
ReplyDelete- Steven Pabua
I totally agree Steve, Mark's reaction was just because he was promised that foreign tax was not applied people who resided and worked within the country and only applied to people who were passing through. Mark did exactly what he should have, going to the Foreign Affairs Bureau and trying to figure out what the deal is. the I found it funny when another American working at the college saw Mark's package and swiped it casually for him, they celebrated the fact that they beat this system in this foreign country. In the long run he had to pay a tax any way when they started withholding his mail for a few weeks. But in my opinion I would've just paid the tax and went on my way, arguing about the way a country does something is never really a good idea in today's world.
Delete-Acucuzza
I agree Steve, the mistreatment of Mark in that situation was shocking. I think another situation that Mark was unfairly treated in because he was a foreigner was with the rat. Mark was in the middle of teaching when a rat fell on his desk, he quickly swatted it. The students said he would receive a reward if he turned it into the Rat Collection Office. The office denied Mark the five cent reward sole on the fact that he was a foreigner. It ridiculous that just because he is a foreigner he wasn't allowed to receive the 5 cents.
DeleteThe values of the Western and Eastern people differ greatly when it comes to the importance of guests. For example, Americans do not put their guests before their own family. This is completely different when it comes the Chinese culture. In China, foreigners are seen as people that come before their family. Iron and Silk is one example that displays this idea. After the narrator has sat down and eaten a beautifully made dinner, the leftovers are taken into a separate bedroom. The narrator, Mark, is shocked when he discovered that the man’s family has been sitting in the other room waiting to eat. Mark asks why they didn’t eat with them at the table. The owner of the home, Dr. Li, says, “That would be rude wouldn’t it? You are our guest after all” (Salzman 33). This event particularly shocked me, as well as the narrator, because this is not how we treat our family. At least in my family and most of the families I know, they come first. In Chinese culture, the narrator learned first hand that this value of family over guests is completely opposite. Your sons and daughter are something that should be shown off the guests to make them realize what a great family you are together and individually. After this, Dr. Li sensed Marks discomfort with this and invited them to all eat dessert together. Usually children would socialize with guests or at least try their best to participate in conversation. This was also completely different when Mark says, “Dr. Li’s children were to shy to carry on a conversation with me, but one did manage to ask me if American food was the same as Chinese food”(Salzman 34). One of the children did ask a question but was not as easily said, as it would have possibly been in an eastern environment. Finally, Western civilizations value guests differently then Eastern civilians would. Chinese in particular rule their guests as higher priority then their family. They are also not as open to discussion as Eastern families would be to their guests.
ReplyDelete-Acierno
Al, I defiantly agree on the difference in hospitality in Eastern and Western People. In China people do value guests more than they do in America and they also treat them with more respect. I was also shocked when I read the scene where Mark notices the man’s family waiting to eat in another room. It is amazing how two cultures can differ so drastically. Finally I also saw a difference in eastern and Western cultures when Dr. Li’s children were to shy to talk to Mark. I feel American children differ from Chinese children in the level of shyness and respect towards adults.
Delete-Jgranton
Al, I also agree with your topic about the respect of guests in the East, but I also feel that we respect guests here in the West. Whenever you have people coming over whether it is your father's business associate or even your aunts and uncles for a birthday, your mother always tells you to clean your room, wear something nice, and not to make a mess. We are respecting our guest by showing them ourselves and our home in its best possible state. The west shows respect to guests, but the East does a way better job of respecting their guests.
Delete-Anthony Venditti
Al, I agree with your point that the Chinese people respect guests before their own family. In Iron and Silk, Mark is looked upon like a god, he is treated with the utmost respect and is complimented for his looks numerously. Unfortunately, I completely disagree with your point that Americans do not put their guests before their own family. To say that Americans aren't respectful is completely subjective. For example, if you were at your vacation house in India and all of a sudden, a 10 year old boy knocked on your door begging for food and shelter. As an privileged American, I believe you would treat the young boy with the utmost respect and make sure he is fed and given shelter. As human beings, it is our duty to show respect no matter what our nationality is!
DeleteWhat's up Al. Although I could understand where you're point of view is coming from, I'd have to disagree. As this is the only real experience I have, I will speak about how my house treats a guest. When a guest comes over, we treat the guest as if the guest came home from a war. Almost overwhelming the guest with food, drink, comfort, and a great feeling of belonging. My family approach guests with the phrase "mi casa, su casa" in mind. But as I am not new to this hospitality toward guests, I am surprised that this level of hospitality is a custom, nationwide.
DeleteIn reading Iron and Silk one thing that caught my attention is family value. A specific example of this is when Teacher Zhang speaks about his college experience in Hunan. He stated how he was depressed because his family lived in Beijing which is far away from Hunan and how terrible of place Hunan was, Several years later when Zhang was able to meet his parents he was thrilled. The whole train ride back to Beijing he was thinking of stories to tell his family but when he saw them he was speechless. No words came out only tears from his eyes and Zhang said that was his happiest moment (Salzman57-58). Salzman also has a story about a time he traveled to Beijing because his relative invited him to a restaurant famous for duck. He listed all the extravagant food they ate that how he enjoyed all of it(Salzman58). Another example was when the Fisherman was so excited to introduce Salzman to his family. The family liked Mark and treated him nicely. The fisherman explained to Salzman that treating people like family is the Chinese way. The fisherman also explained that the common people of China understand manners better than intellects (Salzman71-73).
ReplyDelete-Jgranton
James, I agree with your ideas of family values. Family values are strong in all parts of the world. The examples you used of missing your family after being away from them for a long time are very relevant to most of the students on this blog. Most of us are going to be going away to college in a couple of months. We are leaving our families and heading hours away. We will only see our family during the holidays and breaks. I know I'm going to miss my family and all that they do for me. Going away to college or leaving a country for work are two very similar things because you are leaving everything you love and know to go to an unknown place by yourself. The ideas of family values exist not only this work but in the world today.
Delete-Anthony Venditti
James, much like Anthony, I agree with your post on family values. They still exist and is a key part in families. I also agree with Anthony that your examples are key points, and are relevant for most kids we know today. I, for one, will be attending college and living at the school. I know I will not see my family as much as I do now. The love for my family, and the bond that we share will be affected because of the fact that I will not be around as much. I will miss them greatly, and the fact of going to place that I have not experienced before will be frustrating and saddening. Family vales do indeed still exist and will continue for generations.
Delete-Acierno
In the beginning of the book we are initially being introduced to the Chinese culture, and for me, it's the first time I've ever seen prime examples and personal encounters with these ideas. The customs always seemed a myth to me until I began reading Mark Salzman's Iron and Silk. What really took me by surprise was the comparison of Chinese and American ways with dealing with adulthood. This occurs on page 36 when Teacher Wei would give Mark advice on everything along with his studies, at times Mark got frustrated and said "in America Children become adults around the time they leave for college and like to make decisions for themselves after that." With that explanation Teacher Wei was appalled and confused how an American parent can let their child be independent so young, when they hardly know anything, she questions if they care about him. Teacher Wei then asks Mark that if she "didn't care about him wouldn't he be lonely?" This whole situation brought to my attention the difference between Chinese and American parenting, in China when a parent keeps you close and holds on to you into your early adulthood with strict rules and regulations it shows their affection for their child. While in America a parent who lets their child go off and concur the world on their own shows their affection for them, trusting that they taught the child what's right and wrong, although it is tough for the parents sometimes it shows they really care what is best for their child and is willing to suffer their loneliness for their child to be happy.
ReplyDelete-Acucuzza
Andrew great observation! I do find it interesting how parenting styles can differ around the world today. Freedom is the core element of this country, so it is no surprise to me that allowing children freedom is a parenting method here. I like to think of it as a living-learning environment here, where we learn mostly from life experiences, but of course still have a proper education. So it is good that we are granted that freedom as we are growing up. Where as in China it is seen that parents want their children in more of a educational environment. I just wanted to include an article I found from Stanford University on this topic. http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/may/asian-european-moms-052014.html
DeleteBoth of you made very good points.
DeleteI too felt that Salzman's memior was an eye opener of the customs and culture of China because I have never been there. Dave, I saw in your own blog post further down that you actually have traveled to the East and have personal experience. Do you feel that this memior gives a good example of the Chinese culture? I do agree with the both of you, the Chinese styling of teaching is very traditional and does seem to make them grow older. However I do feel that our country being based more of freedom when ot comes the college and education is a good thong, because it gives young individual their own chance to make decision and do things they love, rather than becoming an adult at to young of an age.
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ReplyDeleteOne thing I noticed when reading Iron and Silk was how the role of the parent is different in the Eastern culture than in the Western. In Chapter 2, the “Myopia” section, Mark agrees to teach a man’s son lessons on how to draw and in exchange the man would teach Mark how to speak Cantonese. It is important for the man’s son to learn how to draw as the boy is very near-sighted and will not be able to go to college and so it is his parent’s wishes that he learns a specific trade to help him succeed in life. The lessons soon begin, however, the young boy endures great difficulty imitating Mark’s drawings as he is barely able to draw a straight line. When his parents find out, they scold him harshly and heavily. As time went on with the boy still being scolded for not drawing properly, Mark thought about how he feels bad for the boy because he is doing what he is doing only to please and impress his parents and not for his own personal pleasure. The difference between Eastern and Western culture does not lie within the parents’ disappointment of their son, any parent can be disappointed in their son, but it lies within the parents’ expectations of the son. In the Eastern culture, the parents expect their children to be what they want them to be and not what the children themselves want to be. In the story, the child wanted to play sports, however, the parents were forcing him to draw. Here in the West, if a child wanted to be an accountant, his parents would most likely let him/her take on that occupation even though they may want him/her to be a doctor or a lawyer. I see this as a big difference between Eastern and Western culture because I feel like it limits the children’s imagination and desire to do something that they would love to do.
ReplyDelete~AGirgis
Even though they are limited their success greatly increases due to this. China's does better on standardized tests than we do and that is for a reason; their parents push them harder. Have you ever noticed how at top colleges like Stanford and Harvard most of the students are Asian or Indian? These parents strictly enforce the rules in their house hold and makes the children prosper in life.
Deletehttp://abcnews.go.com/Politics/china-debuts-top-international-education-rankings/story?id=12336108
Should be a comma after limited.
DeleteWhat really intrigued me was the idea of no children at the dinner table. When Mark visited Mr. Gong’s apartment, Mark noticed that his children were not at the dinner table. Mark very confused asks Mr. Gong why the children weren’t at the table and was told it would be rude. How is children at the dinner table rude?! This idea is so diferent from our American culture because I know in my household the children are suppose to be at the table and have the upmost manners. I wanted to know if this is true in Western culture today. From researching I’ve noticed that children do sit at the dinner table, even with guests present. However the children are expected to have the up most manors and respect to the guest. Some expectations are to sit up straight and feet under them, wait till everyone is given food to start eating, and to keep elbows off the table. Common knowledge to most of us. A lot of times I notice that at my family dinners are the there are actually two separate tables in the one dining room: One regular table for the older participants and one for the younger ones known as “the kid’s table”. I’m sure other people have different variations throughout the western hemisphere, but they mostly have the same concept of having everyone together and not have the children completely separate.
ReplyDelete-JGravina
I agree with you, Joe. I also thought it was odd that the children were not at the dinner table. The thought of not having children at the dinner table seemed crazy to me. Here in the west that is almost unheard of. Like you said even though some families may have a "kids table" and "adult table" they are still usually in the same room, so growing children can still spend time with their families and learn how they should act from watching the adults.
DeleteI agree with Joe and Greg that it is peculiar that children were not at the dinner table. I wrote something similar to this and was amazed when reading this section of the book. Greg made an excellent point with the idea of a kid’s table, and the idea that they are still in the same room. I do believe that they should be at least in the same room so they learn how to behave and act as adults.
Delete-Acierno
Salzman's memior Iron and Silk, truly captivates the values of the Chinese culture and tradition. The values of the Chinese are remarkable, although many may feel, it is bizarre to let a complete stranger stay at your home the Chinese value every person and believe in everyone. An example of this is seen when Salzman realizes that Dr. Li travels forty minutes by bicycle just to teach him the art Wushu. Salzman states, "I realized that he had been riding for forty-five minutes each way to teach me for the past month. (Salzman 33). Dr. Li does this because he values Salzman and the art of Wushu. Another time when Salzman sees the values of the Chinese is when he his teacher makes him drink Chinese rice liquor because they will be reading the works of drinkers and dreamers. Although many people may feel that it is very strange do drink with your teacher, the Chinese feel that they value the idea of learning and want to make sure that Salzman has a full understanding of the Chinese literature. (Salzman 29). The Chinese values and traditions are also seen through hospitality. An example in Salzman's memior when hospitality is seen is when the Chinese fisherman offers to let Salzman stay with him all because of his likeness to his boat and the Chinese. This is a time when hospitality of the Chinese is shown. All throughout Salzman's memior the traditions and values of the Chinese culture are truly shown in many different situations
ReplyDeleteCCrocitto
Through Mark Salzman’s work, you really do see the values of Chinese culture, especially when it comes to respect for one another as you have talked about. Likewise, when Mark met with the fisherman again, Old Ding, he happened to just finish painting a picture. Mark as a gesture of kindness offered it as a gift to Old Ding’s grandfather, who accepted it very humbly. However, the grandfather and Old Ding discussed vigorously on an appropriate gift to give back to Mark. They decided on one of their few boats, but mark “, realized that situation was getting serious,” so he thought on his feet and said he would rather hear a folk song from each relative to “keep the feeling” of the painting. From this, its amazing how kind and far the Chinese people will go to show respect to their guest and honor their own values at any cost. Their small boat was a big part on how they survived everyday and really showed how much appreciation they have for one another and one another’s gifts.
DeleteThere was suppose to be a citation in the sentence with the quote "realized that situation was getting serious,"....(Salzman.119)
DeleteUpon reading Mark Salzman’s Iron and Silk, I am utterly intrigued by the Chinese’s need of perfection in all that they do. They are a very prideful people and don’t like to appear weak. After Mark gives Mr. Gong’s son some drawing materials, he agrees to teach him how to use them. The whole family crowds around the two during his lesson, and they constantly scold the son whenever he makes the slightest mistake. Mark tries to show that there is no problem when he slightly messes up because it is a part of drawing, but his family doesn’t care. They want him to get everything perfect on his first try, and as a result of all these criticisms, he becomes nervous and all his drawing looks like “trembly, crooked lines” (Salzman 47-48). I find it strange that this kid’s parents wanted him to be perfect so much that they actually scolded him when he made such a tiny error. American parents would never care this much about how well their child draws. If anything, they would be happy that their child found something that they enjoy doing; especially if it’s something they can make a career out of. Many American kids today are lazy and just want to sit in front of a TV all day. Few kids actually want to do something artistic or something that requires deep concentration. Many American parents don’t even expect anything their child does in life to be close to flawless while the Chinese expect everything their child does to be perfect right from the start.
ReplyDeleteCarl Mendez
Carl I have the same opinion as you when you mentioned that American parents would not go that far as the family of the young boy and many of the other views you informed. Firstly, if I were Mr. Gong's son at that moment when Mark was teaching him how to draw I would be annoyed to have my family there watching me. My family would be so much stress and pressure because I know they want me to not mess up in front of Mark because he is a foreigner. Other than being a foreigner, my parents are expecting much of me because Mark is taking the time to help me learn and draw just like him. When you explained that American parents would not care that much about how well their child can draw, I agree because it is rarely seen today that American parents would do that although there may be a few who do. Lastly, it is true that Americans kids today are lazy unlike the Chinese kids who are yet again forced and pressured by their parents. The Chinese expect full potential in various things that they do. That is why any little mistake is a big thing.
Delete- Steven Pabua
One thing that I found interesting in reading Mark Salzman's Iron and Silk is how much people care for one another. Throughout Mark's living experiences in China he sees firsthand the love and caring that people have for each other, not to mention the streets of China itself (Sarcastic). The prime example of caring to me is when Mark is out practicing his Kung Fu early in the morning. Dr. Li however had to leave, but told Mark that he would return to help him master the technique. Mark later finds out that Dr. Li was traveling 45 min each way to help him. This to me is truly incredible because Dr. Li is helping a complete stranger master something that seemed important to him. I don't know about you, but I don't think I would travel 45 min to help a complete stranger. Dr. Li truly cared for Salzman because he made an effort to teach and travel every three days. This fact about Chinese culture really surprised me because in current Western Society, we really do not see this type of love and sharing that is seen almost every day in China.
ReplyDelete-VCal
I strongly agree with you Vin, Mark was very dedicated to learn Kung Fu every morning and I also feel that many people here in America wouldn't go out of there way to help someone they don't really know without getting some money. Even Old Ding a fisherman who invited Mark on his boat and gave Mark a choice if he lived with him and his family would buy him a boat.
DeleteYou are spot-on, Vincent. I too see the love and care shown in this book. I for one would never go out of my way to help a complete stranger especially if it meant I had to travel 45 minutes to get to him. I also saw this care shown by Teacher Wei. In pages 38-39, when Mark returns from Wuhan, Teacher Wei is waiting for him so she can walk him home. This shocked me; he was just another student of hers, yet she made sure that he had someone to greet upon his return. Teachers in the west hardly ever have an association with students outside of school. You would never see one waiting to greet a student after that student went away for a weekend. You wouldn’t even see parents waiting to greet their child from the train. People in the west certainly do lack love and care for strangers. People in our society are more hostile towards strangers and usually just want to avoid them rather than help them.
DeleteI really agree with you on this Vin. You gave a good example of how eastern cultures are more about being together as one community. Where as in the east people are much more individualistic and are less likely to go so far out of their way to help someone. Especially if they are not going to be paid for their help.
DeleteAfter reading Salzman's Auto-Biography, I was disturbed with how China handles Suicide. When the woman hanged herself Mark asked what would happen? the answer he was given was not what Mark expected. It is frowned upon and considered a criminal offense to Chinese Law. Moreover, if the person happens to have any children then they would have to prepare for the worst. Where as they would have a hard time getting any job in any unit. The family members of the victim are then accused of leading on the suicide, the "incorrect thought" (Salzman 79) resulting in many punishments towards them. In America however, it is seen as a tragedy for the sorrowing family. As many friends and family gather to console and heal the aching heart of those who have lost. Where many ask why would he/she do this? what went wrong? even as far as to blame yourself for thinking you could have done to help them and be there more for them or assisted them in any way possible. Never once will suicide be considered a crime here in the America. However in the United States Suicide is taken seriously. Its a reach out for help, a time to mourn and a time to remember how many people suffer in silence.
ReplyDelete-BMorales
I agree with you, Brian. The first statement that was released about the suicide was that she didnt blame the governement. What kind of society do they live in where they have to tell people that the reason for suicide wasn't the government? There is obviously something wrong there, and there clearly was. There was also a five day period between the death and the memorial service. For those five days, everthing was kept a secret, and nobody really knew what happened. This is just an example of how the Communist government was keeping secrets from its people.
DeleteWow, Brian. What you said about being disturbed upon reading the auto biography is completely relatable. It is truly a shame how after such a tragedy like losing a family member to suicide, the parents and other family members would have to suffer from even more hardships such as losing a job, etc. Reading this causes me to take pride in the country that we live in because we are kind enough to always empathize and send condolences to anyone who even remotely knows someone who has committed suicide. It is also heart warming to see memorials for these people in certian spots where the suicide may have taken place to show that they will always be remembered by friends, family and others.
Delete-NBowzeres
In reading "Iron and Silk," the part that stuck out the most to me was the Communist system put in place in China and the delusions of the people under the system. I first started to pick up on these feelings in the "Peking Duck" segment of the memoir, where Mark talks about the discussion around World War II during a time of free talk in his class. His students were raised to believe that the Chinese got the Japanese to surrender, and that America dropped the Atom Bombs to appear as the victors of World War II. I understand that yellow journalism, the distortion of news headlines to display nationalistic feelings, happens everywhere, but what his students said disturbs me. "But here in China, we have no reason to lie in the papers. When we make a mistake, we admit it...We love peace. If we were the most powerful country in the world, think how peaceful the world would be!" (Salzman 55). That quote makes me shudder, as China grows in power every day. This memoir was written about 30 years ago, and China has changed drastically. The Chinese have us by the throats economically. What's stopping them from concocting some nation-wide feelings of hatred for America and other countries standing in their way of a perfect world or economic dominance? The winner of a battle re-writes history, and an angry China that gets their way could make a "peaceful" world, if held unopposed by America and other countries.
ReplyDelete-DBerato
I’m happy that someone else realized how disturbing communist China can be, especially when their citizens are “delusional” or fooled by their government to believe whatever is put out. Going to the point you made about the “Peking Duck” part, its scary to believe that high leveled Chinese Teachers are so naïve to believe their governments yellow journalism. If they can believe that our country dropped the atom bomb just to prove ourselves victors, what else would they believe? What else have they believed is even the bigger question. Between page 78 and 79, they so far believe that suicide can be an offense to the Party and thus the family will be punished. Imagine that taking your own life can result your family being punished simply because people follow what their communist government says, no matter how insane it can be. Having the Chinese people being so arrogant of what their government does may allow the government to easy convince their people at any time to go to war for any reason. Thus Dean, I agree very much on your point of the Chinese people’s delusions in freighting communist China.
DeleteI am currently rubbing my hands together as if I were about to eat the greatest meal of all time. Dean you have made a beautiful connection. Let me just touch on your key points. The reason why China can not really cash in on our debt to them, is because their is now a "global economy", China putting a world power in an economic ditch, would not do China any good at this point in time. Where would the Chinese send their kids to school??? AND Mr. Dray, I'd like to touch upon your sentence "having the Chinese people being so arrogant of what their government does may allow the government to easy convince their people at any time to go to war for any reason". Dray, I know through my conversations with you that you probably won't agree, but our government does the same. America guarantees "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". The pursuit of happiness is really the pursuit of money. Because the other two parts of the American cannot be achieved without that paper. Our people are one track minded beings for the green, and that's what our economy strives off of. The illusion of freedom is just the fact that we get to pick which 9 to 5 we want and have control over how much money we make. In commy China you do not get to choose your job or your income. But in both situations, you're working all day. Dray, the fact that you're criticizing China for hypothetically going to war for any reason. as an American, you're throwing stones from a glass house. Most of America's wars could have arguably (strong arguments) been money motivated. In summary, anyone who listens to their government like they have the final answer is arrogant and/or ignorant. The government will always do what is best to keep themselves in power, like any other money making business. People need to learn how to do what is best for the world as a whole and not what is best for their country. Because at the end of the day your country doesn't love you. At the end of the day, Barry Obama isn't being handed an AR and strapping on a helmet, you are. If America's government collapses tomorrow I'm still going to be alive like ain't a damn thing change. Do you, not your government. Sorry Mrs. Foti for another rant.
DeleteThe values of the western and eastern cultures vary differently from there morals and overall aspect on life. Mark Salzman portrays this point perfectly in his biography “Iron and Silk”. There are many instances in this book where we see this, one being his Kung Fu teacher, DR. Li. He travels 45 minutes every day to a place with a long history of war, to show mark Kung Fu. He does not get paid nor does he benefit from helping Mark, but does so anyway. This act is contrary to what we see in the west where we are more focused on the individual and our own self advancement than advancing the community around us. The east has more of a sense of community, where if one person is lacking in some way, it is everyone else’s job to help that person. This really surprised me when I read this, due to the fact that I was brought up in a society that does not follow that type of life style anymore. This saddens me since, the eastern society, seems to be a much more sharing and loving community that focuses on bettering the society rather than just improving yourself. –Nick Scogs
ReplyDeleteGood point nick I also believe the east does show more care about others than the west does in certain ways, especially in the teacher to student relationship. As you said he does not get paid or really benefit for helping mark but he does it anyway because he is his teacher, you don't really see this sense of commitment to others in the west as much as in the east and you see that the west doesn't really follow this style of life anymore, most people are only out for themselves.
DeleteI agree Scogs. From seeing how Dr. Li acted to Mark it reminds me of the morals behind the Catholic Religion. Jesus taught us to always help those in need no matter who they are because we are all God's children. Dr. Li is helping Mark out of the goodness of his heart, inevertinatly following Jesus's message. When Jesus saw Mary Magdalene getting stoned because she was a prostitute, Jesus, not knowing who she was, stepped in and helped her saying, "Ye who is without sin cast the first stone." Obviously they have all sinned before so the stoning stopped and Jesus saved Mary. Just how Jesus just out of the goodness of his heart saved her, Dr. Li helped Mark just because he needed it.
DeleteLooking at American and Chinese civilization is like looking at night and day. One idea that is important to mention is the sheer determination that the Chinese people have in order to master any type of task. They are willing to put their bodies and years of their lives in order to say they are perfect in a certain set of skills. An example of this is seen through Salzburg's master, Master Pan.The first example is seen when Mark is is distraught after failing to masterba fighting style, he is so discouraged that he goes to ad his master whether he should even continue his training. He met with scolding from his master, which included the following statement,"In my whole life, I have never started something I did not finish."(Salzburg, 86) This powerful statement shows that when a man starts a task, he can't bring himself to stop until he is finished. A second example is shown when Mark is shown learning how to throw a weapon. Where if he fails to do it correctly than it is likely that someone is going to get hurt. After the excercise, Mark asks his teacher if he is ever scared to make a mistake. The response he gets is that, " I never make mistakes."(Salzburg, 90) This boastful statement shows that a man should not only pursue to learn a task, but should strive to be perfect at it. The American and Chinese civilizations both have their strong points. But recently America has become a society where if sometimes we are faced with a situation we just quit because we are afraid to fail. I order for us to become a stronger people, I feel we need to adopt the Chinese ideal of an iron determination. Where each of us have the will to start something ad no matter what, master this skill.
ReplyDeleteI agree with what Joe said about the differences between Eastern and Western cultures. After reading Salzman’s Iron and Silk, I saw a major difference regarding the Chinese and American cultures. I believe that man can see things through the end when handling a task, but you have to be hard on yourself to accomplish such tasks. I like the quote Joe used because it showed Mark backing down easily from a challenge but at the same time, it shows Pan never quitting something he already started it. I enjoyed this because it shows Americans, in a way, being lazy and not hard on themselves, therefore, accomplishing tasks can be difficult at times. On the other hand, this quote depicts Chinese people as hard working people and motivated enough to finish what they have already started. Based on the examples Joe provided about Mark’s lessons with his various teachers, I now see and understand the differences between these two separate cultures.
Delete- A Carlo
I do agree with you Joe about how determined the east is when it comes to mastering what they started but I also disagree with Joe when he said that American society is the type of society that quits because we are afraid to fail. America is one of the most prosperous countries in the world and we didn't get that way by quitting the things we start out of fear.
DeleteSo i disagree with joe that the east is a more determined culture then ours, yes easterner's work hard and have good ethic's concerning productivity and Mark observed that firsthand when he taught Mr.Gong's son to paint. Yet i do agree that american's are not known to quit, everything we do suggest's the gratification that victory will give us, sports, hard work in our job's, and the pursuit of our educations. However, mike because we don't quit does not make our society the model of perfection throughout the world... America is slowly becoming decadent through our success, i wouldn't say we are the most prosperous in the world especially compared to western Europe.
DeleteSo i disagree with joe that the east is a more determined culture then ours, yes easterner's work hard and have good ethic's concerning productivity and Mark observed that firsthand when he taught Mr.Gong's son to paint. Yet i do agree that american's are not known to quit, everything we do suggest's the gratification that victory will give us, sports, hard work in our job's, and the pursuit of our educations. However, mike because we don't quit does not make our society the model of perfection throughout the world... America is slowly becoming decadent through our success, i wouldn't say we are the most prosperous in the world especially compared to western Europe.
DeleteWushu is a Chinese sport developed from traditional Chinese Martial Arts. In Mark Salzman’s work "Iron and Silk" he goes to the local Sports Unit and meets a man named Pan. Pan is one of the world’s best wushu fighters: earning the title “Iron Fist” (Salzman 64). Since wushu is obviously an important subject to the author whom has been learning it since a young age, I wanted to know: is wushu really as popular as Salzman describes? So I did some research and spoke on the phone with a Chinese foreign exchange student named Ann’y who currently lives with my friend Tom Pisciottano. I asked Ann’y if the sport was popular in China and she told me that it certainly isn’t the most popular thing at least in the city she comes from but there was plenty of gyms that taught and practiced the sport. Judging from my research, Wushu has a bigger following in smaller cities and more rural areas of China. In the United States, wushu (or Kung Fu) is mildly popular while there’s significantly more stores that teach Karate lessons (possibly due Mr. Miyagi?). While martial arts as a whole is slowly gaining popularity in the United States, Wushu has long been established in China and other Asian countries. Right now Wushu isn't as popular as the NFL in the United States, but in China and other Asian countries there is possibly just as many people that practice some form of Wushu as there are Americans who enjoy football. There is an International Wushu Foundation that promotes Wushu as a sport for the entire world.
ReplyDeleteLink: http://www.iwuf.org/
-JGenau
Mark Salzman brilliantly portrayed the Chinese culture with their art forms and exquisite customs in Iron and Silk. From their delicious Chinese food to their overall beautiful styles of writing, Chinese culture has always peaked my interest. In addition, I have appreciated how difficult calligraphy was and- to be honest, I had the same impression of Mark’s teacher as he did. When Mark arranged for a calligraphy lesson, he expected “that all good calligraphers had to be old men with thin, white beards.”(Salzman 92) This is a very common stereotype that Westerners have towards people in the East simply because we picture calligraphers and martial arts instructors as men like Mr. Miyagi from The Karate Kid. Although a lot of Americans express the stereotype that old men with beards do karate in China, in contrast a lot of Chinese refer to all Americans as “fat” and “lazy.” Many Chinese who practice Calligraphy must concentrate and put everything into performing each intricate stroke. However, most Americans that write almost everyday put barely any effort into it, writing so sloppy that they themselves can barely read it. Reading this part of Mark Salzman’s autobiographical novel made me feel ashamed in my fellow Americans for being so lazy. Maybe if we all took some time out of our daily lives to concentrate more on things like calligraphy and martial arts, we wouldn’t be considered “fat” and “lazy” to other countries.
ReplyDeleteDonald, I concur with what you said about western stereotypes of the east. I also think about Chinese master martial artists as being old and being "wise" like Mr. Miyagi from Karate Kid. Though i agree with your idea of stereotypes i disagree with what you said about other countries changing their view of us if we spent more time on calligraphy and martial arts. If we spent more time working out, then maybe other countries would see us as less fat and lazy but our hand writing has nothing to do with it. I think that your analysis of how intricate and how extremely difficult it is to be a good calligrapher is accurate, though. Awesome post, man!
Delete-TZirngibl
There are many differences in eastern and western culture and these differences are the highlights of Mark Salzman's book Iron and Silk. One difference between the two cultures that I noticed was that the sense of family was different in the two cultures. When mark says that his mother played the piano it is assumed by the people around him that he also plays because someone in his family played. Teacher Wu then gets him a badly damaged piano and eventually the tools to fix it, even though he said he does not know how to tune a piano she assumes he does and gets him to try anyway. In the east it would be assumed that you follow the family tradition of playing the piano or that you would at the least know the basics of playing it, where as in the west we don't exactly have that strong of a family tradition in certain things, It seems as if the west has a stronger sense of placement on what the individual person wants to do instead of what he is expected to do.
ReplyDeleteFamily is a HUGE part of eastern culture. Mike, remember when we had to read “Two Kinds” by Amy Tan last year for Ms. Guerriero? The Chinese immigrant mother kept forcing the little girl into learning to be a child prodigy in a dozen things and finally settled on the piano. This is because the mother had high expectations and believed in the betterment of her daughter. In Asian culture the parents practically live through their children. Their children’s success was their success. On the flip side, the idea of Filial Piety (Mrs. Reynolds taught us this in freshmen year) is the respect for one’s parents. As the parents sacrifice all for the children, the children’s duty is to not only meet but exceed their parent’s expectations and be as successful as possible in all aspects of life: financially, family, morally, and spiritually. Family values are strong in Chinese culture specifically because it was common place to have four generations living together. The reason why Teacher Wu expected Mark to be knowledgeable about pianos is because she would have expected her children to learn. In eastern culture, children do not get the freedom that western children get. Parents are much more involved in their lives in eastern culture. What we would consider a helicopter parent here in America is normal in places like China.
Delete-JGenau
I agree with the point that galford brought up, being that the east has a much more sense of family than us here in the west. As I read i did think it was odd that they made him fix the piano, even though he no prior experience with one. The assumption of him knowing how to, due to the mother playing is bizarre in the west. We focus more on the person expressing themselves rather than passing down a tradition that the family has been doing for a long time.
DeleteMike I completely agree with you. There is a big difference between the family lifestyle in the Eastern and Western cultures. In Mark Salzman's memoir there is multiple times where you can see the cultural difference. This happens multiple times especially with Teacher Wei. When Mark tells her that he has no one to send him off on his trip Teacher Wei offers to bring her entire family with her. And teacher Wei also waited for him when he came back because he had no other family there to welcome him and she told him it would be shameful. Also when Mark explains to her that at the age of 21 in America you are considered grown and an adult, Teacher Wei's response is that you are a still a baby at that age and you still need your parents to take care of you. So Teacher Wei obviously feels that the way of Chinese is much longer until they are considered mature and an adult. Also, when Old Ding invites Mark for dinner he doesn't have the biggest but but yet multiple generations in there for one guest. However here it is seen in the Western culture that the kids try to get away as soon as possible instead of staying and following their parents footsteps. Western culture is a lot less of a family orientated community than in the East. Also it's much more disciplined in the East than in the West as kids are being tutored the whole family watched and if they mess up the family barks at them. So the discipline and lifestyle in the Eastern culture is much different than in the West.
Delete-SCoughlan
One thing I was appalled at was the filth littering the the Changsha city of more than one million people and the capital of Hunan Province. As a city filled with many citizens and a capital of the province you would expect that the city would be filled with happy people and would be clean. It is very much the opposite. The streets are filled with the constant blaring of the horns of automobiles in order to alert the pedestrians of their coming. The citizens seem to be very aloof when walking into the streets. You would think that their would be some type of police patrolling the streets so that pedestrians are safe. Also, Changsha is not very clean. It is described as refuse just being thrown out the window, rats the size of squirrels squished by car wheels on the road, and dust everywhere. If Manhattan looked like this I would be disgusted with the living conditions and such. While this is the case, people tend to be very hospitable to Mark despite their crappy situation. They go out of ways to give food when he visits and they even go out of his way in order to help him out. It could be possible that they are afraid to report the dirty conditions to the officials in fear of angering the Chinese government. it makes me wonder, if this area was modernized and the people had a say in the situation, would the people be more selfish? or would it instill more pride in their culture?
ReplyDeleteI definitely agree with what you're saying Dave. Changsha is just a representation of the rest of China, overcrowded and covered in soot. The quality of life on the surface is all these people crammed together living among the trash. However, when Mark steps into the home of a welcoming Chinese person, its as if the outside world doesn't exist to them, and the only people that matter are the family in the room and their guest. The communist system is meant to devalue the individual for the good of the country. The family unit in China has this indominable spirit that most are not bothered by their living conditions. You bring up a good point, what if the people take pride in their community? Well that would be the beginnings of capitalism. Individuals, not the government, take matters into their own hands, taking care of things their government can't or won't do. I think it would instill more pride in the community, as the people get to take some charge of their lives, not have the government tell them what to do.
Delete-DBerato
While reading “Iron and Silk” something that I noticed was hospitality in China. One instance of this was when Mark Salzman met the fisherman Old Ding. He was so excited to see a white man that spoke Chinese he invited Mark onto his boat. The fisherman took Mark down the river to his family where he had Mark surprise them with his ability to speak the language. Then they gave him lots of food and crowded around him to shake his hands and asking him questions (Salzman 71). Before bringing him back, Old Ding brought him onto a big river boat where they just walked in to meet the crew. None of this would ever happen in a western country. It is not a common thing in the west to invite a complete stranger from another country into your home to give them food and to meet your family. Also, going onto someone’s boat without being invited on to show off your new foreign friend is something that does not happen in western countries. There’s a much larger sense of community between the people in eastern cultures, where as in the west the people are much more individualistic and not as open to strangers.
ReplyDelete-Chad Garlisi
I completely agree with you Chad. I found Chinese hospitality to be more strange than anything, due to the fact that they offer hospitality to almost anyone they see. Your example given is great. I think its strange that Old Ding invited a white person who speaks Chinese (Mark) onto his point. You just don't see that in Western Culture. Most people in the West would probably just stare at complete stranger like that and just keep walking. The sense of community that you mentioned is seen everyday in Chinese (Eastern) Culture. Earlier in the book, Mark mentioned how people just walk into your house when they need something, they don't even wait for you to answer the door! If someone walked into each others house in the West, there would be major problems, as we are just not accustomed to this. And as for the idea of people in the West being more individualistic than the people in the East, I couldn't agree more!
Delete-VCal
I disagree completely chad. Though Mr. Wing did prove that Chinese hospitality is widespread and quite generous....i believe that him and others simply seek to profit from being hospitable to foreigners as it is assumed that every american that visits is very wealthy. I'm not saying that he himself was not friendly or nice at all, but realistically taking in Mark would've potentially brought his family wealth or at least some american dollars. Moreover, to think that here in American most people wouldn't offer hospitality it idiotic...small towns and communities and more often then not our neighbors will come to our aid and offer hospitality. Just because everyone thinks that each of us is out to get one another, or doesn't care doesn't mean that instances of hospitality don't occur in America.
DeleteChad brings up good point, that we would not show this level of hospitality here in the west. In my opinion it is a shame that we do not practice this type of community here. We in the west are too focused on ourselves and the individual that we do not open ourselves up to outsiders. The fact that he brought mark on his boat and showed him to his friends was totally buzzard to me at first. Although as I got onto thinking about it, that kind of kindness and hospitality is needed. It can make the west a closer civilization, like the east is, and help us connect more with people from different cultures.
DeleteAs I began to read through Mark Salzman’s Iron and Silk I couldn’t help but chuckle at all the Western stereotypes. On page 5 of the book Mark is in the process of having breakfast and with his every action he’s being critiqued by stereotypes of the typical American who will not only eat complete crap for breakfast but also by being gluttonous by ordering the Chinese style breakfast after he had already had the abysmal American style breakfast. I saw another stereotype on page 6 where, Mark and his friends the unknowing Americans are essentially paying top notch for things that they shouldn’t have to pay for, such as 2 separate luggage carriers and the most expensive seats on the train. The Chinese were exploiting the Americans stereotypically deep pockets. As I continued the book I realized another stereotype that an American with a college degree must be all knowing. On page 24 Teacher Wu bursts into his apartment and ask him in a way that he really cannot refuse to try to tune her piano even though he has tried to explain to her that he has never played. Mark is perceived to know how to do everything including fixing a piano. Once again foreigners are casting us as characters of our TV shows and commercials. Rather than understand who we are and how we live and why we live as we do they take everyone of our actions and compare it to what they glean from social media.
ReplyDelete-CKatsanos
I agree with what you said Chris as Mark Salzman has been judged and been discriminated by a few people in this book, who have shown to either only judge Salzman based on his actions, which in Eastern Culture are highly frowned upon, such as his eating habits as well as his choice of food to eat, first with the ham sandwich that he had to begin with that the Peoples Liberation Army man made a comment saying how it was beyond him that a foreigner is able to eat that sandwich at an early time in the morning. This shows the ignorance that the PLA man has towards Western Culture and our eating habits, as he discriminates and shows disgust in Salzman’s choice of breakfast, which many Americans have. I also agree with your statement about the Eastern Style food that Salzman orders when the train attendant comes to him asking if he wants anything else to eat. The PLA man has the audacity to comment on Salzman’s diet and basically call Salzman a glutton from the West with no sense of limiting his food intake. The PLA man most certainly comments because of his authority as a soldier in Chinas communist regime who enforce the laws of this strict country, and sees Salzman as nothing more than a capitalist pig.
Delete-ALiharevic
I would have to disagree with you here, Chris. On page 5, Mark is not in the process of having breakfast, but instead he is in the process of beginning his day by contemplating the way of life and how it's different for everyone. He looks at Americans who do not eat complete crap for breakfast and indulge in the luxuries of life by ordering the Chinese style breakfast. This so called stereotype on page 6 shows that there are many ways to observe the situation. Mark and his friends, the unknowing Americans, are essentially paying top notch for things that they shouldn’t have to pay for; such as 2 separate luggage carriers and the The Chinese were exploiting the Americans stereotypically deep pockets. As I continued, I realized that the story numbs the reader. All subsequent events that follow the development of Mark's character fail to highlight any of his weak attributes that are key for the story's progress.
DeleteEvery part of the world has their own morals and ethic values. As portrayed in Iron & Silk the eastern civilization is much different than the western civilization. The theme that really stood out to me was the teacher and student relationship, the way how teachers interact with their students out there in the east is foreign to the west. A great example in Iron & Silk is Teacher Wei, Salzman wrote of Teacher Wei, "She pointed out that the close relationship between teacher and student has existed in China since before the time of Confucius and should not be underestimated" (Salzman 36). Teacher Wei says that he's so far away from and if she doesn't care for him he'd be lonely. This is an expression of genuine care, most often not expressed in the west but she goes above and beyond as to caring. Mark was taking his first trip in China and she got so worried and asked him so many questions. In the west it is normal for a teacher to be curious about a student's personal life but she got so anxious just like a mother would and that's what she meant by the close relationship. I feel that this close relationship is similar to a relationship between a parent and child in the west but definitely not like the east, the kids are criticized all the time and very obedient. When Mark got off the train back in Changsha he heard Teacher Wei call his name and he asked her what she was doing there and she said, "How shameful would it be if no one greeted you when you came home" (Salzman 39). If I got off a train and my teacher was standing their waiting for me I'd feel a little freaked out but things like this are normal in the east. I don't think any teacher in their right mind would take the time out to greet you when you get back home from a trip, that would take some serious stalking but it's different in the east because the teacher and student get so close that they're like family. It is understandable why they do this, someone who's educating you and helping you mature has a big impact on your life so they feel the need to get to really know you. A teacher out here just teaches their classes and goes home, they don't care to find out about your personal life. This is what separates the east and the west on the teacher and student theme, nevermind getting drunk before your lessons.
ReplyDeleteThat is a good observation you made about the teacher student relationship in China. I can definitely understand why you would admire how students and teachers are so much more concerned about each other in the east then in the west. Someone who is trying to help you grow and prosper should definitely be treated in high regards. However, I disagree with how you feel about being greeted by a teacher in public. It would be a good feeling to know that your teacher is truly concerned about your personal life and doesnt just make it like they do in class because its their job. Although some Chinese customs such as drinking before lessons may not be the most the educated things to do, teachers and students do seem to share a bond that may have an impact on the way a student views the class.
Delete-NBowzeres
Throughout Mark Salzman's work of "Iron and Silk" it's shown clearly that in the Eastern Culture learning is never ending. Usually in the Western culture, once we graduate college many people do not have to urge to learn anymore, we may pick up trades but the want and need to learn are dropped after college in the West. However, in the Eastern Culture, especially seen in the book, whenever Mark wants to learn something someone is willingly to teach, but they want to learn English as well. It's almost an exchange of expertise, there is no monetary value involved, it's just the notion of 'I will teach you something, if you will teach me something.' It's valuable in the East, they always have the desire to learn more as they believe that it relates to other areas of learning. Such as when Pan relates learning English to learning wushu, it starts with the basics and then comes in phrases. Hai Bin also mentions something similar when teaching calligraphy to Mark that painting and wushu would be a skill that would carry into the other. So throughout most of Mark's experiences he would become a student and a teacher at the same time. There is such an exchange of power and the Eastern Culture enjoys always learning new ways so when they have the chance to learn they want to and will repay them with knowledge as well, not monetary value. With this observation, it is seen that in the East learning is always a part of life, unlike in the West where it ends at college.
ReplyDelete-SCoughlan
That's an interesting observation Sean, I never really thought about education in the east that way. I feel that many people in the west are not as interested in learning as the people of eastern culture. Many people in America look forward to being finished with school. The people in china are always eager to learn new knowledge. People in America spend money in order to learn something. For many people it can be seen as more of a business opportunity rather than a way to better society.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteVery interesting blog, this is true. We all know the Eastern stereotype as Asian people being smart. This is a solid example of why they have this stereotype, they are always open and happy to learn no matter what. An Eastern individual's life revolves around expanding their brain capacity. When Mark asked Wu if he could teach him Chinese Wu saw this as the perfect opportunity to learn English, an eye for an eye. You made a good point talking about the exchange of power and repaying with knowledge as well; in America an exchange of power would require would money and that's all people want in the West but out there knowledge is powerful and might even be more important than money to them. People from the East come to the West just to get a better education so this is proof that education is their main motive, their mindframe is only education promotes success and internal peace.
DeleteMNewman
I completely agree. There seems to be far more motivation to learn in the East than there is in the West. One reason for this may be the student-teacher relationship established in the East. As demonstrated by Salzman's lessons with Pan, Eastern teachers are extremely dedicated to teaching their students. Pan gives Salzman one-on-one lessons, despite the fact that he has many other students to teach as well. In addition, Pan himself becomes a student of Salzman, and tries to learn English from him. This brings up another point: many people in China have a fascination towards learning English. People in China recognize the difficulty of learning a foreign language, as seen whenever Salzman speaks to someone in Chinese. One particular scene where this happens is when Salzman is in a painting shop. Master Lu is so impressed by Salzman's ability to speak Chinese that he promises to paint a landscape for him (Salzman 158). A similar scenario happens in Professor Jin's home, where he is amazed that a westerner is capable of writing Hanzi (Chinese characters). However, Salzman eventually becomes annoyed by these reactions. On a train in one scene, he refrains from talking as people would otherwise start questioning him about what America's like.
DeleteThis is very insightful Sean, i agree. Like you said it does seem that our education really does end right after college, compared to the east where any chance to learn is welcomed with enthusiasm. It's actually pretty pathetic that all we value is a piece of paper that states we actually know what were doing when really a college grad who becomes a doctor could be a terrible doctor. This actually is really widespread in our society, My dad for instance once worked with a kid who just finished college. Yes he had a bachelor's degree but that did not mean that he had any technical experience or ability to actually work effectively. My point, your argument makes a lot of sense and to add to it, we only learn really information, rather than physical hands on experience which is certainly more effective.
DeleteWhat really stood out to me as I read the first half of Mark Salzman's Iron and Silk is how the people of China react to a foreigner. I know China's morals are very strong and they show the upmost respect for their guests, but some of the people he encountered were literally in awe. They even go as far as saying that Mark was the "perfect foreigner" because he had blonde hair and blue eyes. Also, when he goes and buys his bike so that he doesnt have to take the bus anymore, (because they're filthy and overcrowded) he is able to choose his own bike, and everyone is literally amazed. He even told us that it was sort of uncomfortable for him when he said:"... feeling self-conscious, as if I had just walked into a car dealer, paid for a Porshe in cash, and driven it through the floor-to-cieling showcase windows"( Salzman 26). This is totally different from the way we treat foreigners here; either we don't even bother with them, or we try to take advantage of them. Makes you think about if these streets are really "paved with gold" like they used to say. Maybe fools gold, but certainely not the gold that is perceived to be there.
ReplyDelete-GDiCostanzo
I agree with you Greg, that Eastern Culture and Western Culture treat their foreigners differently, but for a different reason. Some areas of China never receive foreign visitor, like the Fishermen brothers and their family. The children have an irrational fear of him, thinking he is a ghost, with his pale eyes and white skin. Mark even recounts that when he met Liang, he was afraid to speak to him because he thought there were lights in his eyes that scared him (Salzman 170). They are in awe because they lack exposure to other people, which is seen with the wonder Mark faces, or the ostracization the black medical student faces when he talks to Mark. Here in America, it appears we ignore foreigners, because there are so many of them. Everyone has a link to a foreigner, which is what makes America so great. We all understand the struggle an immigrant faces because a family member of ours once faced this problem at some point in their life. Most families aren't even too removed from that long boat ride over to our country. To me, immigrants here aren't ignored, they're mutually understood by everyone, so they don't get alot of attention. These streets are still paved with gold, you just don't hear about it because the immigrants are too busy sweating and toiling for a better life, taking jobs most people wouldn't think to take. You see the American dream in action all over the island. businesses that were once run by Irish, German, Italian families, are being taken over by largely Mexican workers who learned the business, kept their heads down, and now are capable enough to keep a business running. The streets are paved with gold, you just have to dig alittle deeper now-a-days.
Delete-DBerato
One of the most significant themes i picked up on throughout Mark Saltzman's Iron and Silk was the overwhelming concept of individualism vs Socialism. The notion in which we must rely on ourselves and utilize rugged determination and an survival of the fittest ideology is completely contradictory to Chinese socialist view point. For instance, during one of Mark's lessons with the professor Wei, she becomes mystified by the fact that Americans usually transition to adulthood through their departure to college. Wei states "Then how can they leave you stranded when you are just a child". (Saltzman 36). Essentially, our capitalistic society ingrains into our heads the common notion that we must adapt to survive, we must become individuals as soon as possible. I totally believe in backwardness of this ideal, at our age we are not ready to accept the responsibilities of adulthood nor are we capable of truly becoming self sufficient productive citizens. I firmly believe that Ms. Wei has a very valid point, even in our individualistic society those that achieve the highest are supported from birth to succeed in their said specific goal. NHL players for instance have been through years of training camps, tournaments, practice, etc throughout their entire life simply to have a chance at playing on the national stage. As much as i hate the concept of socialism or communism, this does not mean that we cannot rely on other's such as our parents of friends to enable us to become successful members of society. Sometimes a little (or a big) push is all someone needs to accomplish great things
ReplyDeleteD-Lars
One thing that really stands out to me in Iron and Silk are the differences of the living conditions between China and America. Salzman discusses how poor and disgusting these conditions are specifically in the beginning of the book. For example, Mark has to take a bath after just simply riding a bike. The streets and air were so polluted and dirty that he felt he had to bathe immediately. In America the streets and air are almost always clean, and a task such as riding a bike is sanitary and safe. Also, Mark discusses how doctors and medicine weren’t as accessible and advanced in China. He struggled for several weeks trying to find medicine for Athlete’s Foot. In America, this medicine can be accessed at a drugstore instantly. Americans can take some things for granted, we are all very lucky.
ReplyDeleteAnother part of Salzman’s memoir that stood out to me was when Teacher Wu expected Mark to tune the piano on his own. As a musician, I was able to relate to this scene immediately. Tuning a piano properly is a difficult job, especially for someone who has never done it before. The fact that Wu thought that Mark could tune it so easily shows that Chinese people of eastern culture could think very highly of Americans. The Chinese of that time did not know about life in America or know much about American culture. I feel like the mystery of western civilization made these people believe that Americans were extremely talented and could do many things so easily. They admired this.
I was thinking the same thing when I was reading the book, imagine looking fresh and you don't have an access-a-ride in the area so you need to take a bike and you show up to your destination with smudges on your outfit. That would not be good or the polluted air chokes you to the point you faint on the bike and get hit by an oncoming car. These are some possible scenarios that could happen in the East and I completely agree with you on Chinese people admiring us. Maybe they try so hard to educate themselves because they don't think they're on our level meanwhile they're 10 levels higher. Good blog.
DeleteMNewman
Upon reading Iron and Silk by Salzman, what really caught my attention is the presumptuous culture of the western hemisphere. It's intriguing to read how Salzman establishes the fine line between where hospitality ends and rudeness begins. Salzman does a great job introducing the question of how imposed hospitality can be portrayed as coarse. Throughout the autobiographical novel, Mark witnesses, first hand, several accounts of this underlying motif. One particular example is When old fisherman Ding drags mark aboard a complete stranger's boat, just to introduce to him his new American friend. Ding automatically assumes that his presence is welcomed due to the idea that hospitality is implied in eastern culture. He disregards the notion that his action may be rude, ignoring the possibility that his actions might be taken as offensive when he enters on the boat without permission. Another example is when teacher Wu has a broken piano and learns that Mark's mother was a pianist. she presumes that Mark, too, must know a lot about pianos due to his mother's musical gift. Not only does teacher Wu assume Mark is musically talented, she also expects that he would fix her broken piano. Teacher Wu shows up at Mark's house early in the morning with the tools to repair her piano before asking if he had the experience to fix the piano. Teacher Wu disregards the probability that her course of action may be deemed as rude. Due to the presumptuous nature of the eastern hemisphere, both fisherman Ding and teacher Wu are inattentive to how Mark perceives their actions. They automatically assume the idea that hospitality goes both ways, disregarding the the fact that imposed hospitality can be perceived as rude.
ReplyDelete-TNguyen
I don't think that the people in China are "disregarding" the fact that imposed hospitality can be perceived as rude. Rather, i think that they are just naive of how Western culture really is. Most of the people that Mark meet probably haven't been outside of China. Teacher Wu only assumes that Mark knows how to tune a piano because his mother played piano, and if in China your mother played the piano, so did you. Teacher Wu is not disregarding the fact that her actions can be perceived as rude but she is just treating Mark as she would treat anyone else.
Delete-TZirngibl
Thanks for the input Tim. But wouldn't you say from a third person's point of view that her actions were indeed ignorant? Just because an individual has never been outside of his or her native country doesn't mean they didn't have the opportunity to learn about other cultures and take action from an intellectual point of view other than simply acting on what is considered the norm? I find it rather ironic because she was in fact a TEACHER!
DeleteI have to agree with Tim on this one. From what I have read and understood I believe that the people of China are not disregarding that imposed hospitality can be looked at as rude. A good amount of people that mark met haven't been out of China which makes them unaware of how culture is outside of China. I don't think it was rude for them to assume mark can play piano in there culture that's what they did if your mother played piano so did you. The teacher could have asked maybe but in there culture it isn't rude to ask someone if help if they think they have knowledge on the matter.
DeleteSnic
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ReplyDeleteOne thing that really stood out to me in Mark Salzman’s Iron and Silk are the living conditions in China compared to where we live. The one scene that stands out to me the most is on page 128 when Mark is watching the fisherman family and their friends using the river as their toilet and then proceeding to wash their face and neck, then brushing their teeth, and they even gargled the water and spat it out, in the same water they just defecating in. What’s worse is when Mark refuses to bathe in the water himself they tell him that "it was an odd thing that Americans, who supposedly live in a fantastical future-world, know so much about personal hygiene". This stood out to me because of just how dirty and polluted that river because the family has to use this river as their toilet often, and yet they seem to have no sense of disgust when they use it to wash themselves. I think that it shows how poor the living conditions really are as the family clearly thinks its normal, even quite clearly thinking poorly of Mark for not using the recently used river as his shower and bathroom, while here in America, even in most civilized countries, this would be considered disgusting and dirty.
ReplyDeleteIn the movie Slumdog Millionaire we get a peek at an eastern culture (India) in the poorest sections of the society. In one scene we see Jamal locked in an outhouse and his favorite actor was landing in a helicopter nearby. The only way for Jamal to get out was to jump into the pool of feces at the bottom and run out to his hero covered in human feces to get the picture signed. In that movie we see a lot of how he had to survive as a child in the dirtiest of conditions. We see things that any American would cringe at seeing such as kids playing in a stagnant puddle of disgusting water. However Anton I am inclined to disagree with you, those types of conditions are not limited to China or eastern culture. Those types of conditions are merely the result of being in slum conditions and can be seen in the favelas in Brazil, Ghana in Africa, and cardboard city in Serbia. More than one billion people worldwide live in these types of places and they dot the entire globe. Because of our easy city life in America, we are appalled at these conditions that people call home. It is hard for any of us who are fortunate enough to have such a high standard of living and financial stability that we never have to endure any of this but there are those even among us who have to live like that such as people who lost everything after losing their jobs or veterans who cannot find a job after returning from Afghanistan and are forced to live on the streets in conditions not much better than those you mentioned.
Delete-JGenau
One of the major themes of the book Iron and Silk is the stereotypes of those people from the West. One of the stereotypes is when he is on the train and he decides to order an American breakfast. While he is ordering he hears the people behind mumbling to one another. This makes Mark Salesman not only uncomfortable but pressured to order the Chinese breakfast and that is what he does. They mock him for eating at 7 in the morning and then when he eats the two breakfasts he is mocked for being a glutton. The American breakfast is a hand sandwich an the Chinese breakfast is eggs and noodles. Another stereotype in the book is that when he is teaching his students world war 2 comes up. Students ask him “how do you feel, knowing your country dropped a bomb on innocent people.” Mark feels embarrassed and replied that is saved lives but the kids did not give up their argument. Mark is stereotyped for his country war tactics. The same way that Mark is stereotyped is the same way that we are all stereotyped. Everyone around the world hears comments and sly remarks whether it is about weight, nationality, or color of their skin from people of all walks of life. The stereotypes for White Americans’ are obese and lazy. Homer Simpson of the TV series The Simpsons is imitates this walk of life. Goths are stereotyped for wearing black clothes, makeup, and being depressed. Gay people today are stereotyped for their sexuality , so are African Americans for the color of their skin and the way they talk, and Chinese people as well for their eyes. Everyone around the worlds have their stereotyped and unfortunately people will always have an opinion of us but it is those who overcome these opinions are those who thrive in life just like Mark Salesman
ReplyDeleteIn the novel iron and silk we see there are many differences in the eastern culture and the western cultures. Mark Salzmanreally depicts the differences in his novel. One difference between the east and west that is depicted is the importance of family. In the novel mark makes reference to the fact his mother played the piano and the people around mark start to believe he too must play the piano since his mother played. That’s a big difference because if someone was to tell me my mom plays the piano I would not think to myself that he must also play the piano. Another difference in cultures is the Kung Fu teacher who doesn’t get paid to help mark but still travels all the way to him in order for mark to learn. This is a difference because our culture it is hard to find someone who would do this. People expect to get paid to teach someone something whether it is Kung Fu or just simple tasks. We are more self-centered people in western culture we care about our own goals and prosperity. In the east they care more about the community as whole not just themselves but everyone around themselves. These to me were some pretty big differences in the two cultures.
ReplyDelete-snic
As many of my classmates have already discussed, the customs, actions, and way of living of people in the East is completely different from the way we live in the West. Iron and Silk by Mark Salzman shows the life and culture of those in the East lived through the eyes of a Westerner. There are many times throughout this work that these differences are shown, but one relationship stands out to me. The relationship between Mark and Teacher Wei is not only in the classroom, but they also spend time outside of it. Teacher Wei helps Mark adjust to the ways of the East. This is very different from the world we live in here in the West. In New York, it is illegal for students and teachers to be friends on Facebook. Here in the West, the student-teacher relationship is strictly professional. One encounter between Mark and Teacher Wei that stand out to me is when she makes him drink alcohol before class to better understand a drunk in one of the works they were reading. Teacher Wei would not only lose her job but she would be imprisoned for her actions here in the West. In the East, it is perfectly fine though because of the trust they have in each other. Mark trusted Teacher Wei. If a teacher in the West was caught going to a student’s house or giving them alcohol, it would be a disaster, but in the East, it is helpful to the students and it shows the students how the teacher really cares if they do well. Personally, I would be scared if my teacher came to my house or tried to give me alcohol, but in the East, this shows the care the teacher has for their students. The differences between the West and East show some of the major differences between the cultures in the West and East.
ReplyDelete-Anthony Venditti
After reading Iron & Silk, you can easily spot out many differeneces between the cultures of China and America and even how they approach everyday situations. In China, many good morals are demonstrated although they live in such an uncivilized place. One example where we see how well Mark is treated as a foreigner by Chinamen is when we read "He had been riding for 45 minutes each way to teach me for the past month" (Salzman 33). It is crazy how Dr. Li would do such a thing everyday to teach wushu to someone who he didnt even know. He even went as far as to telling Mark that if he ever needed any extra help that he could come to his home. You would very rarely hear something like this happening in America especially when dealing with a foreigner. In China, foreigners are always treated with the utmost respect and in America some citizens may do the opposite. Characters such as Mr. Gong even seem hold Mark in higher regards then their own family. When Mark visits his apartment for dinner, he notices Mr. Gong bring their leftovers into another room where his children are. When Mark asks Mr. Gong why his children werent eating dinner at the table with them he says that it would be rude. In America, just about all parents are eager to show off their children to their guests. Anyone's children should always be valued over their guests. Hearing that Mr. Gong seems to be more worried about Mark then his own children makes Mark feel awkward because he has never heard of such a thing in America. These are just some of the differences we see in Western and Eastern values when reading Iron & Silk.
ReplyDelete-NBowzeres
Agreeing with you, Nick, it was clearly shown how different the Chinese and American cultures are. Americans seem to care more about themselves and the Chinese almost take on the role of a care taker and guider. There are many times in Salzman's memior where this is seen, one example that you did not touch base, is when the chinese fisherman on page 70. The fisherman offers to let Mark stay with. Here in America this idea of taking in a random stranger would be a rare occasion. I think that our cultures are very different because of our morals and beliefs. The Chinese culture is more for the peace and teaching and Americans are more on the side of benefitting for themselves only. After finishing the memior I too also feel the Chinese and Americans have very different cultures and customs.
DeleteCCrocitto
Upon reading Iron and Silk I reflected back to my time traveling in the East. I see many similarities in the way that Mark has been treated throughout his journey, even though this story took place in the '80s. When traveling through major cities I often see how foreigners are taken advantage of. Once you are in the place you are staying with natives they are extremely welcoming just as Mark describes. I enjoyed traveling through the East and found that most people are incredibly welcoming and want to teach you about their culture and traditions. I know the example of the fisherman on page 70 has been used many times. It is a great example of how welcoming natives are to visitors of their country.
ReplyDelete-DBeyar
I agree with you David when you say that many of the natives are amiable when it comes to tourists. Even when I used to live in Vietnam, the vacationing tourists were always welcomed with open arms and entertained. But one particular experience that that changed my view about the Vietnamese natives was the fraudulent appearance they showed. As soon as the tourists were accommodated and entertained I would notice crude remarks or the demeaning stares that them. Their differences is what made them stand out, in a country based on conformity and culture, not individuality. Even in the novel during the train incident. The workers would charge the American tourists more than the initial fee or mock the tourist(Mark) for eating his "American sized Breakfast". Things are not always what they seem. Although there are genuinely good people of every nationality, I feel as if the society we live in today shuns cultural differences rather than embracing them. Being in New York, I would always hear degrading remarks about the tourists who come to visit New York City. I'm sure if some Americans belittle Asian tourists for their differences today, other countries do the same to us. This is just from my experience and opinion as a native as well as a tourist, I am not claiming that no one embraces differences in culture or race.
Delete-TNguyen
After reading Iron and Silk by Mark Salzman, I learned a bunch of information about the eastern world. One topic that I found very interesting was how politics in the east have some similarities to politics in the west. With that said, China is still a communist government. One similarity between western and eastern government is that both make the people aware of how the economy and government is doing. Salzman talks about China's National Day. The government holds a banquet for the foreigners, and before the banquet begins the government speaks to the people about the state the nation is in. The official of the provincial government gives a, "brief review of current political, economic and social issues affecting the province." (Salzman 161). This is very similar to what the United States does. We call it the State of The Union. The president addresses the nation, and tells us how our economy is doing, the policies passed, certain statistics, and what we can see in the future. What is interesting about these similarities is that even though the east is communist, the government still believs that the people should know what is going on and how they are doing. After reading Iron and Silk, I was able to understand how eastern government operates.
ReplyDelete-MTranchina
The cultures of the East and West have many significant differences among the types of people who inhabit each. Mark Salzman’s biography entitled “Iron and Silk” vividly portrays these differences among American and Chinese people. As demonstrated by the life of Mark, the Chinese population is uniquely cultured and highly educated. From a young age, Mark became very interested in Chinese culture and later began to study it at Yale. After graduating, he landed a job teaching the English language at Hunan Medical School in China itself. While in China, Mark tries to further expand his knowledge on Chinese culture by learning common Chinese activities such as calligraphy, Chinese art, and martial arts. These cultural activities are valued very highly to the people of the Chinese culture, and they hold a sort of respect for them that most Americans do not hold for their culture. For example, Mark’s Kung Fu teacher, Dr. Li, travels 45 minutes every day to teach him the art of Wushu. Dr. Li receives no form of payment or services in return for his labor, but he simply does it our of love for his culture as well as respect for the art form. In America, most of us are portrayed as lazy and greedy so this type of behavior is not expected. The Chinese take a vast amount of time to educate themselves on different languages and subjects that are important to one’s intellect. They strive for perfection in every detail of their lives. Americans on the other hand care more about personal interests as opposed to scholarly education. We merely do what needs to get done and leave time for relaxation whereas the Chinese are always extending themselves. -TB
ReplyDeleteI agree, the East and West have are very different when it comes to education. Both the U.S. and Chinese school systems have strengths and weaknesses but in China the teachers are respected more and the teachers have more respect for what they are teaching like Dr.Li He travels that 45 minute trip without any pay because he has passion for what he teaches and encourages the continuation of people learning it. Therefore, if schools in the American public school system were to incorporate the positive aspects that make the Chinese school system so successful, schools in America would in turn be more successful. The Chinese are driven by perfection. Not only by educating themselves in the classroom but perfecting perfecting other things like Martial Arts. The Chinese are a more well-rounded people with higher standards then in education than ours.
DeleteARainero
After reading Iron and Silk by Mark Salzman, I learned a lot of information about the eastern world. One topic that I found very interesting was how politics in the east have some similarities to politics in the west. With that said, China is still a communist government. One similarity between western and eastern government is that both make the people aware of how the economy and government is doing. Salzman talks about China's National Day. The government holds a banquet for the foreigners, and before the banquet begins the government speaks to the people about the state the nation is in. The official of the provincial government gives a, "brief review of current political, economic and social issues affecting the province." (Salzman 161). This is very similar to what the United States does. We call it the State of The Union. The president addresses the nation, and tells us how our economy is doing, the policies passed, certain statistics, and what we can see in the future. What is interesting about these similarities is that even though the east is communist, the government still believs that the people should know what is going on and how they are doing. After reading Iron and Silk, I was able to understand how eastern government operates.
ReplyDelete-MTranchina
In Iron and Silk, its obvious that Chinese and Western culture are polar opposites. On several occasions we see how welcoming the Chinese are to foreigners. For example, on page 92-93 we see that the Mark Salzman's name had circulated through local mentors. Once he had put it out there that he wants to learn Calligraphy, he had an answer and his mentor, Hai Bin, had been at his door not long after. There is an amazing sense of community among the Chinese. For example on page 94, Hai Bin had gone to Mark's place of practice for wushu and had motivated him not to take breaks and to keep pushing himself. At one point, Hai Bin had caught him practicing his Calligraphy when he was supposed to be practicing wushu.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand I also saw a hint of the kind of disrespect that we see all too often here in America. On page 97, two liumang, or punks, had seen Mark and company reveling at artwork and had purposely dropped cigarette ashes on the artwork.
I found it quite funny as to how the Chinese view us Americans. For example on page 98, Hai Bin refers to the large rate of divorce in America that usually occurs in a few months following the marriage. The Chinese also find it outrageous that we have such ridiculous imagination in our Literature
~CSheridan
Mr. Sheridan, I did find it really interesting that Salzman's name had circulated all through town to the local mentors. It was almost this unique connection of people looking to educate each other. It's so interesting because in America there aren't really too many mentors who are willing to train others in an eastern style of teaching. When Salzman studies with these mentors, I feel the mentors all truly care about Mark learning the skill. It's just interesting because the teachers in china have such a different approach to their students compared to the teachers in the United States.
DeleteBut I do agree that we do see an occasional amount of disrespect as we see here in America, but you can't expect everyone to be completely respectful, especially with such a large population.
Sheridan, i disagree with your statement as which you say "how welcoming Chinese are to foreigners." Yes, it is true that that Marks name circulated around the community but that doesn't justify saying that China's overall perspective on foreigners in general is a positive one, especially towards America. The incident on the train, for example, demonstrates how utterly judgmental the Chinese could be on an outsider. They seem to be quick to judge and very ignorant to the facts. However, i do agree with you that Mark is accustomed to behaving a little disrespectful coming from America. The Chinese have more respect for their teacher then we do here in the West when compared to the east.
DeleteARainero
There are major differences between the Eastern and western culture portrayed in Mark’s Salzmann Iron and Silk. A key difference is east opposed to the west is the overall life/health status in China. Mark stated that he seen people just throwing trash out their windows and peeing in the street. Meanwhile in the west you will rarely ever see that happening in everyday life. Another major difference in the eastern culture is the way people greet each other. Throughout Iron and Silk the eastern people constantly greeted each by title professor, comrade and even teacher. Normally in the western society we would greet each other by the title of Mr. and Mrs. Another major differences is how some eastern people truly don’t think for themselves and entirely believe in the government. In addition to believing in their government there is not a whole lot of self-opinion in China as well. For example on page 54 Mark and his students were discussing World War 2. When he asked for teacher Zhu opinion on WWII , Zhu stated that American dropped the atomic bomb to make themselves feel like victors. When Mark asked how do you know, Zhu said because that’s what our newspapers say. This shows that the Chinese that were portrayed in Iron and Silk allow their newspaper form their own opinions. In conclusion they’re many differences in the eastern and western culture , I simply just pointed out a few.
ReplyDelete- Khalil Wood
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ReplyDeleteWhile reading Iron and Silk, I realized the difference between the teacher-student relationship in the eastern world and western world. In the Western world, the teacher-student relationship is strictly only for school. While in the Eastern world, the student-teacher relationship exceeds just in the classroom. It is normal for the students to just show up randomly at their teacher’s house, as Mark experienced. While in the Eastern world, most of your teachers you have, you will never know where they live. If a student rang the teacher’s doorbell early in the morning, the student would be seen as crazy and get told to leave. While in eastern culture, the teacher is to be woken up and then will proceed to help the student no matter when or where. The eastern culture has their teachers at their disposal; they can learn and talk to them whenever they feel they need them. Western cultures have different boundaries and students aren’t as comfortable with teachers as they are in Eastern cultures. Since Eastern cultures are based more on the community then of the individual like it is in the Western culture where it’s all about individualism. That’s why the student-teacher relationship in the East is much more tightly knit then the student-teacher relationship in the West.-CPortelli
ReplyDeleteIn Iron and Silk by Mark Salzman, it is very obvious Mark is interested in Chinese culture. Since he was a child, Mark was very interested in Chinese culture. His parents enrolled him in a martial arts school when he was young, and he grew up learning about Chinese culture. As he got older he learned Mandarin and Cantonese, then went on to Yale to major in Chinese literature. After graduating Yale, he went to China as an English teacher. But Mark was surprised at the drastic differences there were between Chinese and American customs. In China the elders are respected for their wisdom, and the youth will go to them for help with problems they are having or general advice. In the United States children are more ignorant and try to reject interference from their parents because they feel they know everything and don't need help. Marks teacher Wei was very surprised to learn he didn't consult an elder before planning a trip. Also teacher Wei didn't understand an American students attempt at a joke, taking it as a sign of disrespect. These are just a few examples of the differences between Chinese and American customs.
ReplyDelete-JGiannone
Not to be rude but this feels more like a summary then it is a comparison. Regardless, I disagree on simply saying that children are more ignorant in America. I feel that the economic conditions in China force the youth to respect the elders, I feel as though if there was a similar government in China unlike the Communist government the youth would be less likely to respect the elders. There's also the fact that people in these countries have a different work ethic then people in the United States. This work ethic does go into somewhat of an effect of why Teacher Wei doesn't understand of an American's attempt at a joke as well. It is true that elders are more respected which does explain why Teach Wei was also surprised about consulting an elder. Finally you actually only talked about one difference, which was explaining how elders are looked up to in both the United States and China.
Delete-GAndrews
Upon reading Mark SaSalzman's Iron and Silk there is an instant distinction between the way foreigners are viewed from western culture and eastern culture. The scene on the train is a prime example of how westerners are immediately stereotyped on Chinese ground. When simply trying to order breakfast he is promptly asked if he would prefer a "western" style breakfast. This threw up a major red flag for me because here in America no one is stereotyped by a waiter of what kind of breakfast they would like by the way they look, talk, or present themselves. Little incidents like this is a constant reminder that Mark is no longer going to be treated as an equal while in China. The Chinese see Americans as easy targets when it comes to sales; portraying us as wasteful gluttonous spenders on everyday commodities. When Mark is purchasing tickets for the train ride he is tricked into buying very expensive seats with no apparent benefit for spending the extra money. From what i see in America today foreigners arent taken advantage of the way foreigners in China are. In America everyone is seen as equals no matter what your backround is and it is ingrained in our minds that prejudices are wrong.
ReplyDelete-ARainero
I agree that it seems like the foreigners are heavily stereotyped in China. And the parts of stereotyping that occur on the train are very prone to it. I don't agree that Mark is treat as unequal however. Yes the train scene does make it ideal that it could occur, but when he gets to the college, he's treated with higher respect then ever the common folk. Later the call him a professor just because he's from America. He's stereotyped as a well educated American that is very wealthy. These parts not only treat him as equal but they arguably stereotype him to his advantage, it gives him respect. The stereotyping on the train of where Mark is tricked into buying expensive seats though does show how Chinese view Americans gluttonous spenders, but I don't really understand how in America everyone is treated with as equal as well. There are still immigration issues going on as seen in the news. I feel that prejudice and stereotyping is strong no matter where you go, No matter which country you go to there's always in issue of this type.
Delete-GAndrews
I agree and I definitely see what you are saying about the way the Chinese treat American tourists as opposed to the way Americans treat Chinese tourists. I believe that Americans do not have prejudices against immigrants or tourists because America was founded by immigrants and welcomes all into their country. I also feel that here in America tourists and immigrants aren’t being taken advantage of because America welcomes them with open arms. Upon arriving in America, immigrants receive benefits like public assistance for medical expenses, food stamps and housing assistance. In America the mixed cultures and differences are appreciated through celebrations such as Chinese New Year, Puerto Rican Day Parade and Columbus Day. Other cultures and religions are also acknowledged and accepted by all Americans as they along with their fellow immigrant citizens. Everyone in America is truly seen as equals no matter what ethnic background or religious belief.
DeleteUpon reading pages 74-75 you will discover that the Chinese do not believe in kissing. Mark had explained that in his time there, he had never seen anyone kiss. Nobody in the streets, in movies, no one at all. During dinner MArk and the other doctors had discussed the lips of actor NAttassia Kinki. Mark had thought she was beautiful and had very full lips, the other doctors expressed the lips were "too big" and "too full". Mark explained how lips in the west were preferred to be full and big because it was good and attractive. The doctors argued "good for what?". As a native of the WEST SIDE *throws up W with both hands*, I believe that kissing in private within your house is normal, kissing outside of the house in public, could be uncomfortable. I have felt this way since I saw a gay couple kissing on a corner. But the fact that in China, kissing is taboo all over the place isn't right. I do not believe that social norms and abnorms should affect personal things such as kissing.
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