Use this forum to develop discussions from class or to start new ones in relation to the Snow White readings and articles from this week. Also, feel free to discuss other versions not mentioned. Perhaps, the newest two Snow White and the Huntsman or the character from Once Upon a Time would be interesting to check out via You Tube. If you do, share the link with your discussion.
Two posts should be completed on different days between now and Monday morning.
I believe Sandra M. Gilbert's and Susan Gubar's analysis of when they say, " the Queen and Snow White are in some sense one" is very much true in Brothers Gromm's version of Snow White. First off, both characters appear to be very gullible. When the Huntsman comes back to the Queen with what she believes to be the lungs and liver of Snow White, in reality she is really eating the lungs and liver of a boar. Snow White's gullibility is clearly shown in the text when she opens the door of the seven dwarfs three times and allows the Queen, disguised as an old woman, to come in and attempt to kill her. I also believe they can be seen as one because of their evil acts against each other. As I already stated, numerous times in the text we see the Queen attempt to murder Snow White just so she can be "the fairest in the land." At the end of the novel, we see the evil side of Snow White when she has the Queen dance in "red hot iron shoes...until she dropped to the ground dead." Lastly is the evidence pointed out by Gilbert and Gubar. As the authors point out, Snow White and the Queen eat the same deadly apple, which could symbolize how they are in some sense, one. Clearly, Brothers Grimm had to have some intention of relating the two characters to show the reader how they can be consider the same.
ReplyDeleteTom, I agree with you on the fact that they are both gullible. But did you ever think of their gullibility as a result of satisfaction? For example, when the queen receives the lungs and liver of a boat, she believes it is Snow White. At this point in the story, she believes Snow White is dead, making the queen the "fairest in all the land." Ultimately she becomes satisfied with herself and the title of beauty she has reclaimed. In Snow White's case, her life was spared out of the kindness of the huntsman. As a result, Snow White may feel as she has nothing to worry about now that she has found refuge with the dwarves. Although the dwarves warn her to not answer the door, the satisfaction of being alive and well causes her to become gullible.
DeleteI agree Anthony, I feel that the satisfaction of getting what they wanted makes them to feel like they are invincible. When Snow White repeatedly opens the door for the Queen multiple times it shows how gullible she is, she is blinded by material possessions and doesn't see what is really happening. To her the dwarves house makes her feel safe but that is her biggest downfall because she is actually not safe when she keeps opening the door and letting the Queen in.
DeleteLJac
I do agree with the statement that both Snow White and the Queen are similar in the sense that they are gullible. Both characters seem to be blinded by their desires. For instance, as Luke pointed out, Snow White continuously opens the door despite knowing she shouldn't. This is due to the fact that she wants something the old woman has. Similarly the Queen foolishly believes the Huntsman without verifying if Snow White is truly dead. Both of these characters were blinded by their desires and did not think properly.
DeleteIt is clear that the Queen and Snow White are both very gullible, but what I found most noteworthy is that, "Snow White and the Queen eat the same deadly apple, which could symbolize how they are in some sense, one." I found this interesting because Gilbert and Gubar state, "The Queen, as the mother of Snow White is bound to her, therefore, she must kill the Snow White inside herself, the angel who would keep deeds and dramas out of her own house." The Queen seems to be struggling with the fact that Snow White is fairer, and the more Snow White triumphs, the more the Queen destroys herself and weakens.
DeleteHey guys, so we ended class with the question of why Snow White has survived all these years and has been retold across centuries and countries.
ReplyDeleteHere is a useful website from a graduate class at Rutgers that explores the same theme about fairy tales: http://comminfo.rutgers.edu/professional-development/childlit/swcontext.html
On it, this quote from Jack Zipes appears meaningful:
"[T]he Grimms were German idealists who believed that historical knowledge of customs, mores, and laws would increase self-understanding and social enlightenment. Their book is not so much a book of magic as it is a manual for education that seeks to go beyond the irrational. It is their impulse to educate, to pass on the experiences of a variety of people who knew the lore of survival, that we may find the reasons why we are still drawn to the tales today. . . . . [T]hey also wanted the tales to depict social injustices and possibilities for self-determination. Their tales reflect their concerns and the contradictions of their age. . . .Most of all they provide hope that there is more to life than mastering the art of survival. Their 'once upon a time' keeps alive our utopian longing for a better world than can be created out of our dreams and actions."
I have to agree with the opinion of Jack Zipes based on what I read in this exercept. From my understanding, Zipes believes that the Grimms purpose of writing was to send different messages about life to the reader. Within Grimms version of Snow White I believe there are three important social messages to inform the reader. The first message i received from reading the story was that jealousy is the root of all evil. In the story, we see jealousy arise when the Queen is speaking to the mirror, and the mirror acknowledges that," Snow Ehite is a thousand times more fair than you!" Previously in the story we read that the Queen "could not bear being second to anyone in beauty." As a result, the Queen shows signs of jealousy through her numerous attempts to murder Snow White. The second message i received in the story was to not trust people based on their appearance. In the story, we see the Queen dressed up as an old innocent woman and fool Snow White into opening the door to let the old woman in. The Queen, each time, attempts to murder Snow White. Clearly, Snow White doesnt learn her lesson and pays the consequence each time she trusts the old woman. The third and final message i received from the story was that people tend to turn into the people they are surrounded by in life. At the end of the story, Snow White turns into the Queen as she makes the Queen dance in "red hot iron shoes" until she dropped dead. This can be seen as Snow White's revenge after the Queen attempts to murder her three times throughout the story. In conclusion, I agree with Zipes in that the "book is not so much a book of magic as it is a manual for education."
DeleteFrom what I understand, which is not much about these different Snow White readings, Brothers Grimms Snow White was written as a social message to inform. I feel this way as from by brief reading of their story because it has the feeling it was written for a more mature audience. Whether or not that is because they were of German culture or just their intuition. Hence, I agree with JackZipes quote. As far as what Tom said, I agree with everything, as well as your previous post, and for that matter what you have said in class discussions.
DeleteI believe all the stories of Snow White, specifically the Grimm Brother's version emphasize the themes of gender roles and relationships between women. To me the Grimm Brother's version satirizes the role of women in power or wanting power. The woman in power in this case would be the queen and because she is married to the king she becomes too greedy/materialistic and wants no one to be better than her or should I say better-looking than her. This ties into the other theme of the relationships of women as she sees Snow White as more beautiful than her she begins to envy her for it and sees Snow White as a threat to steal her power. As the queen plots to kill Snow White I began to realize how easily women feel threatened and insecure everytime something doesn't go their way. Also revenge is seen as Snow White makes the queen "dance" to her death. Others may disagree but I think the Grimm Brother's version of Snow White is a satire that shows the immaturity and selfishness that comes with power and the relationship between women.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you Joe. Grimm's version shows us how women were insecure about themselves because of beauty. With Snow White and her step mother we see how the step mother is very insecure and feels threatened by Snow White's beauty. She goes so far as hiring a huntsman to kill Snow White and bringing back her liver and lungs so she can consume Snow White's beauty. But Grimm's version also shows the gender roles in life which is shown with the seven dwarves and Snow White. The dwarves show how men are supposed to go out and work to provide for the family while Snow White show how women re supposed to stay home and take care of the house and family.
DeleteDDan
I must say Dom and Joe, this is a very valid point you guys have made. I do see gender roles being shown throughout the fairytale. Yes indeed, women are supposed to take care of the house, but I don't see that a lot through Snow White. We discussed how Snow White was called a "child". Now a child is gullible and foolish, like Snow White in the fairytale. Snow White constantly disobeys the dwarves order when they tell her to not open any doors or let anyone inside. Snow White doesn't listen when the old lady gives her all these gifts, and they are gifts of beauty nonetheless. Except for the apple. I still am confused as to why they chose an apple but I didn't tell the story. So yes, their is a clear sign of gender roles in this fairytale, and we all can learn from this story.
DeleteI agree that Brother Grimm's account focuses largely on gender roles. I believe that in Grimm's account, the gender roles are quite contrary to the stereotypical gender roles of society. In a stereotypical society, the man usually plays more of a dominant role, while the wife is more of a caretaker in a sense that she takes care of all the house work and satisfies all of her husbands needs. In Grimm's account, Snow Whites father appears rarely, but in my opinion his non existent role is basically saying he has no power in the decisions within the kingdom. I agree with Paul as well concerning Snow White being a "child". Her gullibility and foolishness is displayed mainly when being exposed by her step mother. But Paul, do you believe that Snow White had purposely disobeyed the dwarfs, or was it her foolishness which caused her to be tricked? All in all, I agree with all of you that gender roles had clearly been a message being established for the reader by Grimm.
DeleteIn 2012, the movie Snow White and the Huntsman was produced by the director Rupert Sanders. Furthering my research I discovered that he had based this movie on the German fairy tale Snow White by Brothers Grimm which we had discussed in class. As I watched the movie I had seen several differences from Grimm's original writing but one in particular I would like to focus on. In the beginning of the film I had taken notice that not only did the queen wish for a daughter who had lips as red as blood and skin as white as snow, but the queen wished for "hair as black as black as raven's wings and a heart as strong and defiant as the rose she had found." When she had said a heart as strong and defiant as the rose she had found immediately I thought of Snow White in Grimm's writing. I think that Snow White in Grimm did not have a heart as strong and defiant as a rose because of the way the story had ended. I believe that someone who is strong and defiant wouldn't seek revenge as Snow White did in putting her evil step mother in the iron slippers at her wedding. Contrary to Grimm's account, Snow White, the dwarfs, the huntsman and his army fight back in order to restore peace in the kingdom which they succeed. This I believe is strong and defiant by Snow White to stick up to the Queen who has an extreme amount of power in the kingdom in order to fight against the oppression in the kingdom. Therefor, the Snow White in Sanders' film and the Snow White in Grimm's account have extremely similar stories but it is the Snow White in the novel who lives up to her mother's expectations in "having a heart as strong and defiant as the rose she had found."
ReplyDeleteGDiS
Gary, I didnt really like how Rupert Sanders, took out how the Queen wanted to eat Snow whites heart and lungs. Instead he made her eat the heart and lungs of a raven, or a crow, or whatever kind of bird it was. I feel like that was such an important part because it showed how desperate the Queen was to; be the fairest in the land, and how bad she wanted Snow White dead.
DeleteMPer
Referring back to the question we ended class with on Friday, I believe that the story of Snow White lasted for so long, and has been retold in so many countries is because the story is already successful. Because of this, people will be more likely to listen to it, and also because there are so many different life lessons that could come out of the same story. It seems that in each individual version focuses on a different aspect. Grimm's version focuses on the gender roles. Gilbert and Gubar's version focuses more on religion and greed.
ReplyDeleteI'd also like to add that one of the reasons I think the story is so successful is because it contains many common social aspects to it. For example, the stereotyping of women as competitive and ruthless was held common in all three versions of the queen, which is how a lot of countries viewed women, even throughout the 90's and modern times, such as in Jack Zipes' version. Although, as Chris stated, each story has a different and unique focus, all three stories also demonstrate a feeling of materialistic obsession, between the Queen's Wares in the Brothers Grimm version, the King's Sadness over his losses in Lasair Gheug, and the Queen's obsession with jewelry in Jack Zipes' version.
DeleteI strongly agree with you both. The story of Snow White really lasted throughout all these time periods because it shares a connection with every reader or listener. As Chris said, there are so many different life lessons that can come out of the is story this also is a great direct comparison to Albert's statement of, this story is so successful because it contains so many common social aspects to it. I completely agree with these two statements the most because these two statements really show and explain why this story was so popular.
DeleteI believe that the Brothers Grimm Snow White is a classic example of how storytelling is used to make a point and how to get a moral lesson out to people. I agree with Joe Crowley in saying that the Brothers Grimm satirizes the role of women in power or women wanting power.I would also like to add that i think Brothers Grimm is telling the reader is that Beauty can get you very far in life. that point works for when this story was made, and in today's world. The moral point that i think that Brothers Grimm is getting at is that you should never be envious of anyone. The Queen became envious of Snow White and it eventually led to her dancing her feet off in iron shoes. I also think another example of an obsession to beauty is when Snow White takes all of the queen's gifts when she dresses up like an old "hag". We talked about this a lot in class also but Snow White was very much preoccupied with the way she looked and was never at all concerned about any of the products the o;d woman had given her.
ReplyDeleteMPer
I agree with you on your moral point that people should not be envious or jealous of people. The step mother should have been happy that she has a beautiful step daughter but instead she is very jealous and tries to kill her. But I am confused by the "beauty can take you very far in life" point. In this story beauty can end your life quickly in a sense.Snow White's beauty is a threat to the Queen so she tries to kill her because of it. Also like you said how she cares about the products dealing with self appearance, her weakness for containing her beauty almost ended her life instead of getting her far in life.
DeleteDDan
I understand what both Joe and Michael are trying to say that "beauty can take you very far in life", and i agree with both of their perspectives. What Joe is saying about relating the fairytale to a present day topic is that i feel like now present day, being beautiful will get you farther because the exterior of the person is easier to see that the interior, the personality. You can see their outer "makeup" but never truly know anything about that person until you know their personality and inner traits. They might be one of the most beautiful people in the world but have a very ugly personality. The huntsman let her go because she was so beautiful and he didn't want that burden on him and i feel like now present day beautiful people will get away with certain things more than a regular average person would get away with simply because of their beauty. What Dominick is saying about it becoming a threat i also agree with because many people again start to envy you and want to be more like you and therefore would want to "take you out" (kill you) therefore making themselves feel more powerful since you don't exist anymore. I think both statements are true from both Joe and Michael. I also want to point out how a fairytale that was told many many years ago, in many different places, having the story changing differently overtime can really teach us life lessons. How something as simple as a fairytale can really explain to us a small situation within the story and let us figure out what it means. It gives you simple examples from the story which you can relate to now present day. It helps you understand it when you are younger therefore you learn from it as you get older which allows you to think more in depth about certain situations and numerous different themes that were taught to us by snow white.
DeleteNick, I thought the same thing about the gender roles that are portrayed in Snow White. I feel like through time the gender roles haven't changed with women nor the way they carry themselves out with many personalities. I definitely can say guys can have split personalities but I feel like women are more likely to have different personalities towards different people especially one another (woman to another woman). When women compete with each other they are more likely to change how they act along with how they treat other people around them. Women have never been known to be dominant figures, therefore this story serves as a purpose of a feminist standpoint in writing. I feel that is the reason that the father of Snow White has little to absolutely no part in the fairytale.
DeleteCCar
I100% agree with both Tom and Anthony, both characters are very gullible as you guys said. Anthony bought up a great question, I feel like that is also 100% true because of one when the huntsman gives the queen the lungs and liver of a boar, the thinks it Snow White's and she also thinks she dead. Snow White is is very gullible when she lets the queen in all three times when she says the same thing all three times when the dwarfs said not to let anyone in and the queen tries to kill her all three times. The satisfaction of the queen is that if she kills Snow White, she can become the "fairest in the land." Another time Snow White is gullible when the dwarfs tell her she can stay and live with them if she cleans and cooks for them. Snow White does these two gullible actions of letting the "old women"(queen) in three time after other times she tried to kill her and cleaning and cooking for the dwarfs because like Anthony said she did it for the satisfaction of being happy,living and easy going. Also, they both try to kill each other they have revenge, after all three times of the queen trying to kill Snow White, we see a bad side of Snow White when she makes the queen dance until she drops dead on the ground, she does this to get back at her. I also feel Grimm's story of Snow White tries to show the readers about the relationship of women through jealousy and wanted power.
ReplyDeleteVin Mastrogiulio
After class I realized that there were more versions of Snow White than I thought there to be and after thinking for a while I remembered a movie I saw when I was younger. The animated movie is titled Happily N'Ever After 2: Snow White Another Bite @ The Apple. A trailer for the movie can be seen here, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YNwOSaPeq0. Even though this version of Snow White is different as it includes a bunch of other fairy tale characters, and is more modern, it combines a little bit of all three stories we read in class. Believe it or not the first movie involving Cinderella is based off the Grimm Brothers version. Anyway to save time and space the movie can be read about here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happily_N%27Ever_After_2:_Snow_White_Another_Bite_@_the_Apple , and I wanted to point out the parts where the stories are similar. This version of Snow White is based off the Grimm's version so they are similar in that aspect. The movie is similar to Lasair Gheug because there are numerous times in the beginning that the King gets mad at his daughter but really doesn't due anything until one point when he puts his foot down and says enough is enough. More so the movie resembles Jack Zipes' version of Snow White as the whole movie revolves around Snow White helping the peasants of the town and making them happy. That is ultimately the lesson in the end. At one point in the movie Snow White's mother (before she died) says "Remember, the mirror tells half the story" as "beauty is given by helping others". Basically what this means is yes, Snow White may be beautiful but to be completely beautiful you must help others. At the end of the movie when the wicked step mother's spell wears of and she becomes ugly again Snow White says "You don't need to be a queen to be beautiful,". This means that Snow White is saying there can be a horrible looking queen but she will be beautiful as long as she gives back to others. To me these parts combined Jack Zipes' and the Grimm's versions together as Jack Zipes' version focuses on helping and Grimm's version focuses on beauty. Overall the movie may be a little childish but is a great way to go more in depth into all the versions of Snow White.
ReplyDeleteI strongly agree with Tom K. and the three valid points he had stated. I also agree with Zipes in saying the "book is not so much a book of magic as it is a manual for education." I think that is a strong point made because many fairytales will illustrate simple situations that we will be faced with in life as we grow up, and teach us right from wrong on how to act when we are faced with these situations. Also giving readers different perspectives and understanding on how they will interpret the story, or lesson learned. Showing how people are going to want to be the prettiest, smartest, richest, etc for example. Envy is a strong theme in this fairytale and the queen shows us how envious she really is when the mirror tells her that snow white is the most beautiful in all the land. That is why she goes out to kill snow white because she is extremely greedy, selfish and envious of how beautiful she is. I also agree with Joe C. in his point made on gender roles and the importance of gender roles between women. I think that is a strong point made and can relate that statement to the general life today because i feel many women are at competition. I am not saying guys aren't but i personally feel women are more competitive in certain ways and will go to any extreme it takes to prove a point. The queen tried different ways to take down snow white and toward the end snow white simply tortured her out of pure enjoyment to finally kill the queen.
ReplyDeleteIn Grimms' version of Snow White, we see the role of importance of women. This seemed very interesting to me. Women usually don't play a big role in stories, but for some reason, Snow White seems to revolve around the role of women. It doesn't entirely do so, but a big part of the fairytale does. I feel they did this for a specific reason. Most stories are told about heroic men, such as Beowulf, and how they succeed in becoming a hero. This story in particular talks about women and how jealousy can take them over. When the queen asks the mirror who is fairest the mirror says Snow White is the fairest. This enraged the queen and she sent out a Huntsman to kill her. Basically, without summarizing the entire story, the queen is jealous of Snow White, tries to kill her, fails, and pays the consequences. Women are a force not to be messed with. They can be your best friend, or they can be your worst nightmare.
ReplyDeletePFol
As paul said, in Grimm's story of Snow White we see the importance of relationships of gender roles between women. In most of the stories i read in the past the women really didn't have big parts in stories, but in Grimm's version of Snow White the women have a big role. Snow White is a young, beautiful girl who escapes death three times. The queen is a evil person who wants to be the "fairest of the land" and she tries to become the "fairest in the land" by trying to kill Snow White. I feel like this relationship between Snow White and the queen can relate to the a lot of the women in todays world. Most of the girls in the world today are jealous of other girls and are in competition with them to be better than them. As i said before, most of the stories i read in the past the women didn't have a big role, but as Paul said most of the books i read was about the men having a bigger role. In Snow White, the women wants to be better than each other. The queen is jealous of the young beautiful Snow White and wants to kill because of that. The queen tries to kill her three times and all three times she fails. As you can see, Grimm's version of Snow White shows us the importance of the relationship of women of how a women can be jealous and because of that the women will try to take you down.
DeleteVin Mastrogiulio
I agree with you both. In all stories of that time period none of them really revolved around women. This must have been a shock to every person who heard or read this story. As paul said, Women usually don't play a big role in stories, but for some reason, Snow White seems to revolve around the role of women. This is a great statement because shows the start of the roles of women in literature. Also as vin said, Most of the girls in the world today are jealous of other girls and are in competition with them to be better than them. I strongly agree with this because this was the main idea throughout this story.
DeleteCArn
I also believe the role of women is very important in the stories. The fact that women don't play a role in most stories make these stories more unique. It gives the readers an idea of how women could be pretty on the outside but ugly on the inside. There's a constant theme seen in each story that women look to be the most beautiful on the outside no matter how ugly it takes to be on the inside. I especially agree with paul's comment that a woman can be your best friend, or your worst nightmare because it shows through Snow White that no matter how innocent she looks on the outside she, like most girls, can have a mean side to them filled with jealousy and revenge.
DeleteI agree with you Paul. We can see through Grimm's version and Laser Guge that it is hard for women to coexist. They get fixated on one flaw in their lives and fight each other over it. They act in evil and ruthless ways that others may find extreme. Throughout queen is trying to kill Snow White for some trivial reason. It is portraying women as harsh and radical. The message can be seen throughout society today but not on that type of level.
DeleteGrowing up with a cousin almost my age in my family, I was surrounded by a little “princess”, she always wanted to be Snow White and I found myself watching the Walt Disney produced movie Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. After reading Brothers Grimm’s version of Snow White, I realized that it was the closets match to the rendering stories of Snow White. Within each story, the theme of death turns out differently. The results vary because of the audience that it is geared towards, Disney is geared for children, while Grimm is geared for the more mature audience. For example, Grimm sets a picture in the audiences mind of cannibalism. When his evil step-mother plans to kill Snow White, the step-mother orders Snow Whites organs, so she can feast. This image would be much to violent for a younger and less mature audience. As for the Disney audience the huntsmen is just ordered to bring back Snow Whites heart, but there is no indication that it will be eaten. These two stories compare with the poisoned apple, seven dwarfs, magic mirror, ect. But these comparisons are different, for intense the apple is half red and half white in Grimm’s version. The dwarfs also do not have names in the text, and for the mirror, the rhyme is different. These stories are so close in comparison but then again so far away.
ReplyDeleteCCar
Chris, I too have a ton of knowledge about Snow White from the Disney animated film from our childhood. However, reading text versions of Snow White in class, specifically the Brother's Grimm version, made me realize a big difference in the story. One thing, like you mentioned, is the Disney movie is clearly meant to entertain a PG audience. Therefore, it does not contain the graphic, violent descriptions that are written in the text of Brother's Grimm. Disney cuts out the idea of cannibalism and the evil step-mother ordering Snow White's organs to be eaten. Ultimately, the main thing that I'm beginning to realize is that a story can differ between a text version and a motion picture version.
DeleteJDiC
I feel that Disney does edit the stories a lot but like you said Chris it is appealing to a different audience. I always thought of Snow White to be exactly what Disney portrayed it to me but after this week I now realize how wrong I was. Personally I do like Disney version more but now I wonder what other fairy tails are "really" like. One thing I found quite interesting that I actually read was that Snow White is not the only fairy tale that is gruesome and then portrayed as happy by Disney. The Little Mermaid is also a really vicious tale. In it she actually winds up drowning herself in the ocean after not getting the prince. In the end I really do agree with you how Disney cuts out a lot of the violent aspects of the story. However even though I think it is good for the audience they are trying to reach I feel it does take away from the original story.
DeleteChris, did you ever think that the Disney version could serve as an educational purpose to a younger audience? For example, since it would be wrong to expose children to cannibalism, maybe the Disney movie was meant to push the younger audience into the next stage of growing up and starting to learn about the world. As I've seen a good share of Disney movies, I've noticed Disney movies today don't carry the same conflict as older ones did. In Snow White, her step mother attempts to murder her out of jealousy. On the same note, in the Lion King, Mufasa is killed by his own brother. His son Simba is left fatherless and is cheated out of the throne. I feel that these movies were intended to help kids cope with issues that may arise and I also believe they do a good job with it. These movies can be used as a coping device, but also portray a message that good can only come from the bad.
DeletePPiz
Snow white has become one of the most classic stories that we tell to children because of all the messages it gives them. The classic Disney movie is just a watered down version of Grimm's gruesome tale. Grimm's tale was meant to scare kids straight and keep them on the right path in life. the images of cannibalism and torture make kids imagine that if they disobey then they will be hurt too. Disney's version just shows that you can be saved if you do something wrong. Grimm's tale also emphasizes on the fact that it is hard for women to coexist. Either over looks or a man, women will be ruthless and evil towards each other. Many people see Snow white as a sweet child's tale and nothing else of it, but looking further into it brings out the true meaning in things.
ReplyDeleteJonathan I agree with you all the way. This story is known throughout the world. You are right, a story like this is meant for children to try and teach them meanings. A story like this has hidden morals. It shows how being jealous and being ruthless are horrible things in the human race. Yes, this is a children's tale but it is much more than that, it shows how not to act in society and how both genders need to exist with equal treatment to each other. This story has much more meaning in life than a children's tale.
DeleteB'OSu
Snow White and many stories resembling Snow White are comprised of hidden morals that are subliminally teaching children rights and wrongs. Although Grimm's story may be more gruesome than Disney's, I don't agree that Disney's version is giving poor lessons such as, "Being saved if you do something wrong." When thought about, it becomes obvious as to why Disney's version cannot be as gruesome as Grimm's. Today's culture is much safer than back when. Disney, since bound to safe restrictions, isn’t able to have the same, moral teaching and effectiveness on children. But, I believe Disney did a fine job in expressing the same morals as Grimm in a less savage manor.
DeleteI agree will you also Jonthan... I believe the story of Snow White is a well known story that is one of the many famous fairy tales told throughout the world. Grimm's tale emphasizes the fact that beauty is not everything and I think this especially opens the eyes of little girls. Through movies and Disney they have manipulated little children and especially girls however Grimms tale helps show that women have emotions of jealous and envy and fight over many things including beauty.
DeleteI agree John, the Disney version is a more dialed down version of Grimm's tale. However, I don't agree that Grimm's story was intended to scare kids, I don't even think the message is supposed to be portrayed to children. I think that Grimm's audience is supposed to be adults. Grimm uses harsh description and more gruesome ideas in order to both interest and scare adults.
ReplyDeleteCWre
I also agree with chris, i feel like it wasn't intended to scare kids but i felt like it was better for them to learn moral values and life lessons at a younger age. I also feel like the story could have changed over time going from person to person and place to place when it was retold.
DeleteI agree with Chris and Nick. Grimm's version is very gruesome and harsh just like Lasair Gheug's. I really do not think either of them were meant for a children audience. Even though I have never seen the Disney version I know of the story and it is nothing like those two stories.
DeleteI've recognized that there were many differences between the 3 stories we read in class about Snow White. Grimms fairytail was most closely related to the movie out of the 3. From the dwarves working in a diamond mine to the evil queen trying to kill Snow White and the talking mirror. In Lasair Gheug the mirror is shown as a trout, basically telling the same story. These three fairytales are each told differently but they all portray the same message that Snow White was a beautiful naïve little girl that was constantly trying to be killed.
ReplyDeleteWShu
I agree with your post, Will. I also believe there are many differences between the three fairy tales revolving around Snow White. The Grimm's version, Lasair Gheug, and The Merseyside Fairy Story Collective all represent "the mirror" that is seen throughout the stories. However, In Merseyside, the mirror points out that the queen is the "happiest of them all" while in Grimm's and Lasair Gheug, the mirror tells the queen she is "the fairest of them all". In addition, Merseyside also describes the queen as not being related to Snow White while the other two stories show she is Snow White's stepmother. Therefore, the three stories do have many differences.
DeleteBUrg
Returning from the discussion we had in class on Friday, I feel the story has stuck around in a lot of countries because of the morals and the entertaining dilemmas in the story. There are so many issues in this story such as jealousy, greed, and the difference between genders. Everyone wants an entertaining story to listen to and to read. Also this story has huge life lessons and can be passed down to children as tales and morals at the same time. Kids not only find this interesting but they learn the right and wrongs of society through stories with meaning such as this one. There is a reason this story has stuck around so long and will continue to. it is through meaning and entertainment that people will always be interested.
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I agree with Brian, one of the main reasons the story has been around this long is because of its great moral value. All three versions of the story show a protagonist,Snow White/Lasiair Ghueg,and an antagonist, Snow White's step-mother. In all three versions the authors have different ways of showing us that good always prevails against evil. The antagonists continue to try and kill Snow White but in the end Snow White lives and the step-mother dies. The story is not limited to a young crowd, readers of all ages can learn from its moral values.
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ReplyDeleteBefore reading the three text versions in class, the only recollection of Snow White I had was the Walt Disney movie I watched as a kid. Out of the three stories, Lasair Gheug was my personal favorite. It was a big contrast to the Disney movie in many ways. The most obvious difference is the culture, Lasair Gheug is Irish and the Disney movie is American Culture. Also, Lasair Gheug was incredibly gruesome compared to the movie. It features the killing of a dog, horse, the kings oldest son, and Snow White's fingers being brutally cut off by her father. Also, the mirror in the Disney movie is portrayed as a trout in a well in Lasair Gheug. Overall, this contrast between Lasair Gheug and the Disney movie is really interesting and I find it intriguing how a text and a movie can differ.
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I definitely agree with you Joe, when I was growing every time I heard the title Snow White I immediately that of the happy Disney fairytale. But after this past week's discussions in class my view has changed. After reading Lasair Gheug I also could not make a clear connection to the Disney movie because of how violent it was. Throughout the short work several animals died such as a dog and a horse. Also the king's oldest son died and her father cut his daughter's fingers off. One similarity that I also saw as well as Joe is that both the American, Snow White, and the Irish, Lasair Gheug have a mirror that is portrayed as a trout. I am very curious to hear what actually made this story come about and why wasn't it as happy as Disney portrayed it to be.
DeleteIn the third version of Snow White that we discussed in class, I felt that this last version of Snow White that we read was more for a mature audience. It was nothing like that of Grimm's and Lasair Gheug's story of Snow White. I felt that although Snow White was made to be a fairy tale, this particular story had more of a real life situation than the others. The reasons that I believe this are that this is a more modern version of Snow White. This story also relates to today because of the dictatorship that is going on throughout the world for the past 100 years. The queen in the work is shown as a strict dictator, especially because she gets what she asks for. This story serves the reader that this is an allegory because of the rise of a dictator in the queen and the ones that are actually around in real life. To me this version of Snow White teaches a message only an adult viewer would understand.
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Despite joseph's poor grammar I completely agree with him. I too felt that the third version of Snow White that we read in class was for a much more mature audience. I Also agree that this version is an allegory to dictators from the past. However I didn't that that the queen was a dictator because she got what she asked for. When reading this story I thought that the queen was a dictator when she had taken the diamonds that the dwarfs were mining.. I also felt by watching people through the mirror she resembled Big Brother from 1984.
DeleteJoe i agree with you. I also believed that the third version of snow white was indeed meant for a older audience. The sceens that were decsribed in the reading were just gruesome and nothing you would expect from a Snow White reading. I must agree with Daniel though because I did not see the Queen as a dictator. Sure she got what she asked for, but not as a dictator. To finish up on your last statement, I totally agree this reading is for a mature crowd. A young reader would become way too confused because these readings are not what we thought they were going to be.
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I found it interesting that in all 3 stories the dilemma's are caused by jealousy. I feel as if the authors of the stories are trying to advise readers against jealousy. Although the stories are fictional and the effects of jealousy may be exaggerated, the stories show us that it is never good to be jealous. When the step-mothers in the stories become jealous, they go to extreme measures to get what they want, in all three cases it results in their own deaths. They also show, through the character of Snow White, that being happy with what you have will have much more positive effects than being jealous of what someone else has. Although the three stories are every different, they share the same central meaning along with the messages they convey to the reader.
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After reading "The Queen's Looking Glass", one part that really stuck out to me was when the author said, "At the same time, though, there is clearly at least one way in which the King is present. His, surely, is the voice of the looking glass, the patriarchal voice of judgement that rules the Queen's - and every woman's - self- evaluation". I completely disagree with the author here because I don't believe that the looking glass is "clearly" the King. I feel that the voice behind the looking glass that the Queen speaks to is her own self- consciousness. Just because it is telling her the truth, that she is not the fairest of the land doesn't mean it is a man. Often times I feel woman will blame men for their own insecurities when it is really just themselves in their own mind. That's what I think the Queen is doing, she is jealous of Snow White in her own mind because she knows Snow White is prettier then her and she doesn't want to accept it. The author saying it is the King is definitely not true in my opinion.
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Almost everyone has heard or even watched Disney's movie Snow White. It has become a world wide classic because of all the meanings that children learn from it. Disney's version of Snow White is less gruesome and violent than Brothers Grimm. Grimm's tale is more for a much mature and older audience compared to Disney which is for a young audience. One lesson that Brothers Grimm shows children is to never go out into the forest because you do not know what is out there. There are also many images that would scare a young child such as the step-mother eating the liver thinking it is Snow White's liver. It also shows how women gets jealous of one another because of their beauty. This corresponds to the point that everyone should be happy for who they are and not be greedy or envious of another because that could lead to death or injuries. I liked this tale better than the movie because it actually makes the reader's mind curious to see if it is going to be a good or bad ending. Whereas most typical Disney movies end with a happy ending.
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Joe, i agree with all of your statements that you proposed. I agree that not only in Grimm's version of Snow White, there is also gruesome activity in the Lasair Gueg's story. Although I don't think that one of the main reasons Grimm wrote the story was for him to teach children to never go into the forest. The part when the step mother ate the liver of the hare was definitely one of the most gruesome parts in all of the Snow White stories. I agree that one of the main conflicts of the story is jealousy. I do believe that this teaches a lesson to the younger audience because to me jealousy is a terrible trait to have. Snow White, the tale in my opinion is also better than the movie because of the simple fact that the tale was made for a wider group of audience rather than just younger children.
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In the modernized Zypes version of Snow White, I believe that he allegorizes the actions of humans in today's world. For example, on page 76 Snow White thinks of the people who "spent their whole lives working to make lovely things for the Queen of the Mountain." I think that Zypes is referring to the ways of economic globalization. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the author, but as I read his version I've come to feel that the critic could even be potentially satirizing authoritative legislature as he makes Snow White the happiest in all the land. The queen could have whatever she wants but she decides to want more, as she makes Snow White live and work for her. In today's world, an authoritative power could have so much but because of the rapid economic globalization and constant adjustment to the times, those powers may look to take more.
ReplyDeleteWhen I first heard that we as a class are reading Snow White, I automatically said to myself in a sarcastic manner "Wow cannot wait to read about a movie I never saw." Little did I know that what my first thought would be completely changed. Now I do find these stories decently interesting. It is extremely different from the original movie we all saw growing up. For example, jealousy, the want for beauty, and gruesomeness play a major part these stories. Though all not in the same story but reading about fingers being cut off, sleeping with one eyed cats, killings of people, and even animals just throw off as a reader especially coming from reading a childhood movie such as Snow White. Although some of these stories do show life lessons such as never speak to strangers or open the door for anybody who looks suspicious. More a like these examples are for a young person dealing with strangers. It shows that you cannot trust everybody. I do in a way like these reading because it is different from everything you thought Snow White was going to be
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I think that the reason the story of Snow White has stuck around so long is because of the morals and lessons behind it. Also it is a very interesting and appealing story for children. All little girls love hearing of a princess and those type of stories. There has been so many versions of Snow White so they can appeal to many different audiences.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you Nick, The multiple stories of Snow White are pasted on generation by generation and teach children the themes behind them. Snow White might be depicted as an innocent, naive girl to the children; however, there are many reasons why she is the opposite of that. When the evil queen comes to her house three times and tricks her into almost getting killed, Snow White is described as being "too nice" or "gullible". The queen uses the same dialogue to trick her over and over again. So yes, Snow White does teach children themes, but also teaches them that Snow White is a facade.
DeleteI agree with both of you and feel that the story of Snow White has been passed from people orally from time to time again and has continued to last because of the various images that it has depicted. It is appealing especially to little girl because the story mentions beauty a lot and tricks girls in thinking that beauty is one of the most important things. However in Grimms version it shows how beauty causes conflict among women and how it can lead to disaster. This version is most geared toward adults because they are more understanding and can understand the messages behind the story whereas children are naive like Snow White and can manipulated easily.
DeleteOne issue that repeatedly bothered me about the Brothers Grimm version of Snow White was the satirical view it held on women. I don't think it was appropriate or rational. For example, Snow White's repetitive naivety when dealing with the queen was not common of women, or human beings in general. It's an implication that women don't learn from previous mistakes, which is wrong, since all people do. I also think that the Queen's malicious intent was rational, as it extended far beyond the boundaries of sanity. Jealousy over beauty infrequently goes as far as to will one person to kill another, yet the queen was so jealous that she tried to kill Snow White thrice. Although the Grimm version was an extremely interesting read, the way they portrayed women was a bit out of hand.
ReplyDeleteI agree Al and in addition to what you said women are also portrayed as nice if they are beautiful. Readers of Snow White usually characterize Snow White as being nice along with beautiful and naïve even though no where in the text it says or shows that she was a nice person. Readers just seem to think she was nice because of her beauty and we all know that just because a woman is beautiful doesn't mean she has to be nice. So again, I agree that the way women were portrayed in Grimms version was very unreal. Another thing was that every time the Queen showed up at Snow Whites door she fell for her tricks and opened it. After the first time the Queen showed up with the lace and choked her, you would think that Snow White learned from that and she would never open the door to another stranger again. But because of the naivety she fell for it 2 more times, this to me is also unreal because women usually learn from their mistake just as all people do.
DeleteWilliam I definely agree, the portration of women as being commendable based on their beauty is an absoulte horrific assumption. There is absoltuely no need for that. It is teaching children that beauty is more important than other things in life. There are more important things children should be worrying about such as education, etc..
DeleteOne thing that I found odd about the grimms version of Snow White was the fact that Snow White took revenge against her step mother. Snow White took revenge by forcing her step mother dance to her death. I felt that Snow White was meant to teach a lesson to children but I deal revenge isn't the right message. I feel that people shouldn't use revenge in an everyday situation. However in this situation I think revenge was not too far fetched. I think If I was snow white in this situation and someone had tried to kill me I would want revenge too.
ReplyDeleteThe Grimm brother's account of Snow White shows the queens jealousy leads to her downfall. The mirror tells the queen that she is the fairest of all although the mirror also tells her that Snow White is fairer than her. This leads to extreme jealousy and she tries to kill her own step daughter Snow White. This in all leads to her demise when Snow White is not dead and tortures her at her wedding
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